Is this acceptable?

[Mike38]

I have a fixed sight carry handgun that shoots to the left about three inches, and low about one inch at 10 yards. It's not me, anyone that shoots it gets the same results. Is this acceptable accuracy or do I have a problem here? If it matters, it's a Smith & Wesson J-Frame M-60 in .38 Special. It's a carry gun, so I doubt it would get used at any distances greater than 5 to 7 yards (while I pray I never have to find out). Granted, at the range I hold the sights accordingly, but in the heat of the moment, I'm sure things like that get forgotten. Thank you for replies.

[mehavey]

It's a close-in self defense weapon.

- Put a silhouette target at 3-5 yards max.
- Ignore the rear sight groove and just put the front sight into the silhouette center of mass.
- Fire a group of three double-action shots about 4-5 seconds apart.

Where did it impact?

[Sharkbite]

That^^^ will not show if the SIGHTS are properly regulated.

I know you said other have had the same POI issues, but "low, left" (righthanded shooter) is almost always trigger control problems. In fact, its the MOST common trigger control symptom.

I would suggest doing a ball and dummy exercise live fire (in single action if your gun will allow that) on the range. If the sights dont dip when the dummy round is under the hammer AND the fired Rounds are still low/left then the sights ARE off

My experience (best guess) is doing it that way the hits will center up nicely

[SpareMag]

Have you tested from a bag or rest to see where the shots are grouping?

As noted, the human element is the most difficult to eliminate. Before worrying about the sights, you may want to lock it down and see where the holes are being made.

[Targa]

Had a very similiar issue with a .38 Bodyguard. Contacted S&W and they sent me a pre-paid label to put on the box to send it to them, they fixed the sights and sent it back. Great customer service.

[mehavey]

not show if the SIGHTS are properly regulated.

Again, do as recommended at 3-5 yards/front sight blade in the silhouette gut.

Tell us what happens.
Then we'll talk options.

[pilpens]

Try different ammunition.

[Sharkbite]

Again, do as recommended at 3-5 yards/front sight blade in the silhouette gut.

And AGAIN.. How does not lining up the sights tell you ANYTHING about where the sights point respective to the group??

The OP is not asking about point shooting or even "gross body alignment". He states that when using the sights he hits low/left and even mentions holding off to get centered hits and not remembering to do that under stress.

Step 1. Determine EXACTLY POA/POI
Step 2. If it is off, figure out a fix.

A fixed sight revolver like the OP's model 60 can be tuned some to adjust POI. An example is to lower the height of the front sight to raise POI. But this should only be done AFTER the human error element is eliminated as the cause.

[gyvel]

I use a complicated method to determine sight accuracy:

(1) Completely disassemble the revolver to bare frame. (This assumes you don't have a frame mounted firing pin.)

(2) Draw a dot on the wall.

(3) If possible, have a means of securing the gun, such as a small machinist's vice or propped up between some books or what have you.

(4) Look through the firing pin hole until you see the dot that you drew on the wall centered in the barrel. Prop the gun so that the dot stays centered in the barrel as you look through the firing pin hole.

(5) Now, assuming you have the gun properly rested, look to see where your sights are aiming. If they are aligned on the dot (ignoring elevation), then the problem is you. If not, then the sights are at fault.

It's basic bore sighting, but it is a bit more complex with a revolver.

As an addendum, you could also perform the same function without completely disassembling the revolver by using a small dental mirror to look through the barrel.

[mehavey]

This is a belly gun, of which I have two of the same Chief's Airweight.
Do as suggested in both bellygun aimpoint posts against the silhouette.

Then let's talk options

[Aguila Blanca]

IMHO it doesn't matter if it's a belly gun. Sights are put on firearms for a reason, and hitting 3 inches to the left at 10 yards is not acceptable. I would return it to the manufacturer for correction. Heck, I once had a $200 (new) Armscor M206 that was about that far off, and Armscor replaced the gun under warranty, no questions asked.

[g.willikers]

Dunno, but this sounds like a classic case of small revolver-itis.

[Sharkbite]

IMHO it doesn't matter if it's a belly gun. Sights are put on firearms for a reason,

Hit it on the head. The ability to hit while point shooting has NOTHING to do with the sights being properly regulated. Should you need to take a precision shot, the SIGHTS need to be on

[mehavey]

Do the silhouette test.**
Then talk.


**(This simple test will reveal any number of things -- surprisingly including shooter dual sight alignment error)



(And anyone trying to take a head shot with a snubnose/Chief Special
beyond ~10 feet needs to have his head examined)
Pun very specifically intended

[Sharkbite]

And anyone trying to take a head shot with a snubnose/Chief Special
beyond ~10 feet needs to have his head examined

Maybe if you used the sights a 10' headshot would not seem impossible

[mehavey]

Don't even think about it.

[Sharkbite]

Holy carp..

I carried a Smith 36 as a back up for a number of years. I used to shoot our standard Qual course (not the BUG course) all the time with it.

That included 7 YARD (not feet) headshots and COM shots out to 25 yds. Always passed the course. Not with perfect scores but high 70%, low 80%

That gun would hit dead on POA/POI at 7 yds with a 158gn swc/hp. Im talking put a hole exactly where the top of the front sight was when the shot broke.

If you claim a J frame wont shoot accurately, id suggest getting some training and learn how to use those little sights and control that trigger.

[mehavey]

Isuggest you get some training.

Give me a break.
I own TWO J-frames
One I gave to my daughter.
I know well what they (and she/I) will do.

Don't even think about a head shot in a high stress/combat situation.



I say (again)for the OP: Put just the front sight (only) in mid silhouette at 3 yards and show us the group location.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by mehavey

(And anyone trying to take a head shot with a snubnose/Chief Special
beyond ~10 feet needs to have his head examined)
Pun very specifically intended

25 feet, Armscor M206 .38 Special snubnose. Yes, it's a six-shot revolver -- two shots went into one hole, and I'm pretty certain it wasn't the flyer.

[mehavey]

And this is a fixed-site Vaquero at 25 yards/single-hand/off hand:



Can it be done: Yes
Should it ever be done/high-stress/combat/with catastrophe as the failure mode: No


I'm still waiting for the OP's front sight blade test results.
So far it's just theory going back & forth

[Sharkbite]

Brother,

Simply owning a cpl J frames doesn't mean you know how to shoot one. Buying a Guitar doesn't mean i can play the darn thing.

Based on the statements you have made reguarding YOUR inability to make solid hits at anything other then almost contact distance...i stand by my statement.

Get some training.

[mehavey]

Oh Lord.
Look at #20.
I'm done.




...and OP: Ignore that rear sight and put that FRONT sight into the gut of the object of your attention.
All else is folly beyond that outside of sport.)

[RickB]

If the gun is shooting low/left, then you can shave the right side of the front sight to get it on for windage, then shorten it for elevation.
The last new revolver I bought shot a foot low and six inches right at 25 yards, so it was easy to adjust the sights with a file to get it on target.
That's assuming you are seeing the same low/left when shooting both single action and double action.
I certainly would not put in any practice holding the gun off target (Kentucky windage).

[David R]

I have been shooting these little guns a long time. The get to know it time is long, the learning curve for me was slow. I fired a LOT of rounds to learn how they shoot. I have 5 snubbies all with targets similar to these.

J frame airweight Twenty Five Yards. Yes that is a big target.








And last but not least, my little 21A they told me I could not hit a garbage can if I was standing in it.


Keep shooting Spend time and Ammo, get the hang of it as if your life depends on it. That is what I do.
David

[David R]

my bulldog 44



And my Bigger Bulldog, S&W 624 44 special six o'clock hold



Perhaps you found a passion of mine

The Charter Arms Bulldog (top) fits in most of my J frame holsters.

David