pistol calibers in rifles - 44mag vs 357mag

Cousin Pat · March 3, 2014, 05:39 PM

Looking at ballisticbytheinch.com, it looks like the faster 357mag gains at lot more energy from a 18" barrel than the slower 44Mag -- so that the muzzle energy advantage of 44 over 357 is only about 15% coming out of a rifle. This is of course at the muzzle -- I wonder what the comparison is at, say, 50 yards...

zippy13 · March 3, 2014, 06:10 PM

Down load one of the ballistic apps and check out some specific loads.

bamaranger · March 5, 2014, 02:46 AM

Own and shoot both........and the ME/chrono figures are not necessarily the end of the story. No doubt in my mind that an all up .44 carbine, particularly one of the heavy bullet loads at full house, say 265 grains and up, is far more gun than any .357 load.

It'd be interesting to see how much penetration one got in various mediums with a heavy/ tough slug from a .44 carbine.

mavracer · March 5, 2014, 08:07 AM

Muzzle energy is a poor benchmark for performance, using it alone overlooks many other much more important factors. While the 44 from BBTI only has 15% more energy the 240 hydra shok has about 50% more momentum.
I'd also add that there are no full power 44 mag loads listed on BBTI.

And the correct answer as always is get both.

Deja vu · March 5, 2014, 08:13 AM

I am a huge 357 magnum fan. That said the 357 magnum is not the rifle the 44mag is. There is a little over lap. The Hottest 357s are hotter than the mildest 44 mags but in the upper (and even middle) ends the 44mag out does the 357 by a pretty big margin.

The 357 magnum out does the 44 only in recoil and price point. I guess you could say trajectory but not by much.

Mobuck · March 5, 2014, 09:06 AM

Depends on whether you just want to PLAY with it or need it to do more. I've seen the difference between the two on deer and it is significant. If something bigger was on the game card, there's simply no comparison.

savagecornmuffin · March 5, 2014, 09:45 AM

In an 18 in rifle, the trajectory difference in negligible (.5 inch @ 100yds). However, the 44 mag delivers 250 more ft/lbs at 100yds than the 357. I'm comparing 240 grain 44 mag @ 1600 FPS to 158 grain 357 mag @ 1700 fps.

That's likely the 2 most common off the shelf loads for each.

**44 AMP** · March 5, 2014, 02:54 PM

Looking in one book, I found 240gr in the 1700fps range from a 20" carbine, and in another book, a load in the 1800fps range from an 18.5" barrel.

I've had both the Marlin carbines in .357 and .44, and I can tell you that the difference in recoil is quite noticeable. There may be only 15% difference in muzzle energy (cherry picking which loads to compare), but it sure feels like more than 15% in recoil to me.

A 158gr .357 bullet at 1700fps has a muzzle energy of 1014ft/lbs
A 240gr .429 bullet at 1600fps has a muzzle energy of 1365ft/lbs

At 50yds, the .44 has 1003ft/lbs
At 50yds, the .357 has 765ft/lbs

That's NOT 15%, its more like 1/3!

Art Eatman · March 5, 2014, 08:43 PM

Beaucoup comments from hunters who rarely need to shoot at Bambi beyond 50 to 100 yards. For them, a .357 or .44 is as useful as an '06 is for me in wide-open country.

goalie · March 7, 2014, 10:04 PM

44 mag out of a16.5" barrel has worked well on deer for me.

The woods I hunt make a hundred yard shot "long."

KyJim · March 9, 2014, 01:33 AM

As mavracer mentioned, bullet momentum will often be more important than kinetic energy of the bullet, especially for penetration. Mass is the more important component for momentum and velocity is the more important component for kinetic energy. You can see this in the formulas where M is mass and V is velocity:

Kinetic Energy = ¹/₂M x V²

Momentum = M x V

Hammerhead · March 9, 2014, 04:23 PM

A lot depends on the bullets you choose. In .357 you pretty much need a quality 158 JHP at max velocity. Muzzle energy will look impressive here.
.44 Mag, or better yet the .45 Colt, will do well with cast 240-255 SWCs or heavier LFPs at 1000-1200 fps, with less than impressive energy figures.

My allarounders in pistol caliber carbines are the .357 158 XTP with a full dose of HS-6 (~1500 fps? in my 22" Handi) and a 255 grain .452" LSWC over 8.0 Unique (~1050 fps) in my 20" H&R classic carbine.

The big bores are more fun to shoot.

Slamfire · March 12, 2014, 04:08 PM

These are the velocities I got with 240 grain bullets in my Marlin 1894. At 100 yards a 44 Magnum from a rifle hits my gong targets very hard.

I was never interested in the 357 Magnum out of a rifle. Sure it will have less recoil, but I want more power.

I always thought using Kinetic Energy (mass times velocity squared) as a comparision between bullets was bogus, since only momentum (mass times velocity) is conserved. Gunwriters love KE because it squares the velocity and it is a lot easier to increase velocity, and thus KE, than increasing momentum.

The 44 Magnum has more momentum than the 357 and always will.

Code:

M1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel
				
				
240 Speer JHP 22.0 grs 2400 CCI 500	
21-Dec-01	T = 54  °F			
				
Ave Vel =1747			
Std Dev =21			
ES =68			
Low =1717			
High =1785			
N =7			
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05	T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1725			
Std Dev =7			
ES =21			
Low =1715		
High =1736			
N =5		 	 
				
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05T = 65° F			
Ave Vel =1752			
Std Dev =12			
ES =28		
Low =1735			
High =1763			
N =5		 	 
				
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1710			
Std Dev =3		
ES =9			
Low =1705			
High =1714			
N =5		 	 
				

				
240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1745			
Std Dev =12			
ES =45			
Low =1723			
High =1768			
N =10			
				
				
240 Rem JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05	T = 65° F			
			
Ave Vel =1719			
Std Dev =10			
ES =29		
Low =1705			
High =1734			
N =10

Hammerhead · March 13, 2014, 03:33 AM

Marlin 1894 pre-safety with Lyman receiver sight?
Nice!!!

Woodslab · March 14, 2014, 07:00 PM

I don't know much about the 44. But I can tell you my info on 357.

20" Henry 357 and chrono @ 10 ft

125 grn bullet
22.2 grains w296
Magnum primer

Pushes 2250 f/s muzzle. 1440 ft/lb
2068 f/s 50 yds. 1188 ft/lb
1886 f/s @100yds 986 ft/lb

Hammerhead · March 16, 2014, 12:37 AM

2250 fps? That's mach 2!
Well done.

**44 AMP** · March 16, 2014, 02:35 PM

I have gotten 2200fps from the 18" Marlin .357 with 125s and a case full of 2400. Its neat.

BUT, the regular 125 JHP tends to come apart very violently when it hits something at that speed. Think varmint bullet or small grenade.

NOT a good choice where some penetration is needed.

bamaranger · March 16, 2014, 03:07 PM

Yeah, I had a Marlin carbine paired to a L-frame Smith for a while, both zeroed for 125 factory JHP. From the carbine, the 125 load was just absolutely explosive on vermin and ferals.

thephatboi · December 6, 2014, 04:57 PM

I have one of each in the limited run Marlin 16" 1894cp and 1894p rifles. I just love these things. They both gain alot from a rifle barrel. Never chronographed them but I will for sure say the 44 kicks ALOT harder (you wouldn't expect a pistol round to kick in rifle

and hits alot harder. Both are very accurate as I was hitting a 4" mower blade stuck in the dirt in our front field at about 270 yards about 50% of the time, a bit easier with the 357, of course I was holding high on target, but pretty fun

I'm sure the 357 would down a whitetail if well aimed but If I was hunting deer, I would for take the 44 just to be safe.

greywolf444 · December 21, 2014, 08:11 PM

I have killed deer with both in marlins. Both work very well. I load the 44 with 265gr cast over 9.5gr of unique. Sort of a pistol load out of the rifle. Still shoots thru both sides and they fall down. In the 357 its a 180gr cast over 16gr h110. Works as good as you need it to. Deer fall down. Pick one and use it. The 357 is more fun for playing at the range. I didn't buy them for brute force, but , for daily 'shooting what needs to be shot' duties at farm distaces they both can't be beat. My distances top out at around 100 yds and trajectory and power are fine out to there. I hunt in the timber for deer and 100 yds may not sound impressive but it is mighty far in the brush. If you are really wanting mainly a big game rifle the 44 wins on power, the 357 on versality with plinking and small game.Both kill deer. Remember, deer aren't that hard to kill. By my experience most guys go way overboard in power for deer. Really, using a 300 mag on deer in the timber? (it is way better if you are sitting in a long field) It works but not much fun to shoot on anything else. I'd rather shoot for fun most of the year.

Colt46 · December 22, 2014, 10:42 AM

Both of them do, but the level of performance gain for the .357 makes for a quite impressive camp gun.

Mystro · December 22, 2014, 03:06 PM

I have really gone from the idea that the 44mag is a good deer caliber to it is a great deer caliber. Almost all deer I have shot with the 44mag from a handgun are bang-flop kills. These were from mid power 240 XTP loads out of a handgun. In a lever action the 44mag is about as good as they come as a versatile deer slayer. I have killed a few deer with the 357mag and 10mm. They were just o.k but the 44mag is in a completely different league.

Fully expanded 240xtp recovered on the opposite side hide.

Kaliburz · January 5, 2015, 01:58 AM

Nice shot!

The 44 Mag will always have more energy then a 357 Mag.

The reason I would want a 357 Mag lever action, is ammo compatibility- same ammo for revolver and lever gun. And two cal (38 Special & 357 Mag). Granted, 44 Special and 44 Mag also..... but the 38 and 357 is more common in places I go.

Model12Win · January 5, 2015, 02:06 AM

.44 magnum makes more sense in a rifle barrel.

You get the big bore factor, but much higher velocities than out of a handgun. Much more weight. Should be perfect for deer, or wilderness defense. A full power .44 magnum hard cast 300 grain SWC would do well on even a large bear coming out of a carbine. They also will deal a mighty blow for self defense if needed, with a good JHP.

March 3, 2014, 05:39 PM	#1
Cousin Pat Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Posts: 140	pistol calibers in rifles - 44mag vs 357mag Looking at ballisticbytheinch.com, it looks like the faster 357mag gains at lot more energy from a 18" barrel than the slower 44Mag -- so that the muzzle energy advantage of 44 over 357 is only about 15% coming out of a rifle. This is of course at the muzzle -- I wonder what the comparison is at, say, 50 yards...

March 5, 2014, 02:46 AM	#3
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,295	both Own and shoot both........and the ME/chrono figures are not necessarily the end of the story. No doubt in my mind that an all up .44 carbine, particularly one of the heavy bullet loads at full house, say 265 grains and up, is far more gun than any .357 load. It'd be interesting to see how much penetration one got in various mediums with a heavy/ tough slug from a .44 carbine.

March 5, 2014, 08:13 AM	#5
Deja vu Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2010 Location: Border of Idaho & Montana Posts: 2,584	I am a huge 357 magnum fan. That said the 357 magnum is not the rifle the 44mag is. There is a little over lap. The Hottest 357s are hotter than the mildest 44 mags but in the upper (and even middle) ends the 44mag out does the 357 by a pretty big margin. The 357 magnum out does the 44 only in recoil and price point. I guess you could say trajectory but not by much. __________________ Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull. all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...

March 5, 2014, 09:45 AM	#7
savagecornmuffin Member Join Date: December 5, 2013 Location: SE USA Posts: 66	Da Numbas... In an 18 in rifle, the trajectory difference in negligible (.5 inch @ 100yds). However, the 44 mag delivers 250 more ft/lbs at 100yds than the 357. I'm comparing 240 grain 44 mag @ 1600 FPS to 158 grain 357 mag @ 1700 fps. That's likely the 2 most common off the shelf loads for each.

March 5, 2014, 02:54 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,795	Looking in one book, I found 240gr in the 1700fps range from a 20" carbine, and in another book, a load in the 1800fps range from an 18.5" barrel. I've had both the Marlin carbines in .357 and .44, and I can tell you that the difference in recoil is quite noticeable. There may be only 15% difference in muzzle energy (cherry picking which loads to compare), but it sure feels like more than 15% in recoil to me. A 158gr .357 bullet at 1700fps has a muzzle energy of 1014ft/lbs A 240gr .429 bullet at 1600fps has a muzzle energy of 1365ft/lbs At 50yds, the .44 has 1003ft/lbs At 50yds, the .357 has 765ft/lbs That's NOT 15%, its more like 1/3! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 3, 2014, 06:10 PM	#2
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Down load one of the ballistic apps and check out some specific loads.

March 5, 2014, 09:06 AM	#6
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	Depends on whether you just want to PLAY with it or need it to do more. I've seen the difference between the two on deer and it is significant. If something bigger was on the game card, there's simply no comparison.

March 5, 2014, 08:43 PM	#9
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Beaucoup comments from hunters who rarely need to shoot at Bambi beyond 50 to 100 yards. For them, a .357 or .44 is as useful as an '06 is for me in wide-open country.

March 7, 2014, 10:04 PM	#10
goalie Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Minnetonka, MN Posts: 120	44 mag out of a16.5" barrel has worked well on deer for me. The woods I hunt make a hundred yard shot "long."

March 9, 2014, 01:33 AM	#11
KyJim Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2005 Location: The Bluegrass Posts: 9,142	As mavracer mentioned, bullet momentum will often be more important than kinetic energy of the bullet, especially for penetration. Mass is the more important component for momentum and velocity is the more important component for kinetic energy. You can see this in the formulas where M is mass and V is velocity: Kinetic Energy = ¹/₂M x V² Momentum = M x V

March 9, 2014, 04:23 PM	#12
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	A lot depends on the bullets you choose. In .357 you pretty much need a quality 158 JHP at max velocity. Muzzle energy will look impressive here. .44 Mag, or better yet the .45 Colt, will do well with cast 240-255 SWCs or heavier LFPs at 1000-1200 fps, with less than impressive energy figures. My allarounders in pistol caliber carbines are the .357 158 XTP with a full dose of HS-6 (~1500 fps? in my 22" Handi) and a 255 grain .452" LSWC over 8.0 Unique (~1050 fps) in my 20" H&R classic carbine. The big bores are more fun to shoot.

March 12, 2014, 04:08 PM	#13
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	These are the velocities I got with 240 grain bullets in my Marlin 1894. At 100 yards a 44 Magnum from a rifle hits my gong targets very hard. I was never interested in the 357 Magnum out of a rifle. Sure it will have less recoil, but I want more power. I always thought using Kinetic Energy (mass times velocity squared) as a comparision between bullets was bogus, since only momentum (mass times velocity) is conserved. Gunwriters love KE because it squares the velocity and it is a lot easier to increase velocity, and thus KE, than increasing momentum. The 44 Magnum has more momentum than the 357 and always will. Code: M1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel 240 Speer JHP 22.0 grs 2400 CCI 500 21-Dec-01 T = 54 °F Ave Vel =1747 Std Dev =21 ES =68 Low =1717 High =1785 N =7 240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs W296 WLP Fed cases 23-Mar-05 T = 65° F Ave Vel =1725 Std Dev =7 ES =21 Low =1715 High =1736 N =5 240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs W296 WLP Fed cases 23-Mar-05T = 65° F Ave Vel =1752 Std Dev =12 ES =28 Low =1735 High =1763 N =5 240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases 23-Mar-05 T = 65° F Ave Vel =1710 Std Dev =3 ES =9 Low =1705 High =1714 N =5 240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases 23-Mar-05 T = 65° F Ave Vel =1745 Std Dev =12 ES =45 Low =1723 High =1768 N =10 240 Rem JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases 23-Mar-05 T = 65° F Ave Vel =1719 Std Dev =10 ES =29 Low =1705 High =1734 N =10 __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

March 13, 2014, 03:33 AM	#14
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	Marlin 1894 pre-safety with Lyman receiver sight? Nice!!!

March 14, 2014, 07:00 PM	#15
Woodslab Member Join Date: February 25, 2014 Location: eastern nc Posts: 81	I don't know much about the 44. But I can tell you my info on 357. 20" Henry 357 and chrono @ 10 ft 125 grn bullet 22.2 grains w296 Magnum primer Pushes 2250 f/s muzzle. 1440 ft/lb 2068 f/s 50 yds. 1188 ft/lb 1886 f/s @100yds 986 ft/lb Last edited by Woodslab; March 14, 2014 at 07:09 PM.

March 16, 2014, 12:37 AM	#16
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	2250 fps? That's mach 2! Well done.

March 16, 2014, 02:35 PM	#17
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,795	I have gotten 2200fps from the 18" Marlin .357 with 125s and a case full of 2400. Its neat. BUT, the regular 125 JHP tends to come apart very violently when it hits something at that speed. Think varmint bullet or small grenade. NOT a good choice where some penetration is needed. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

March 16, 2014, 03:07 PM	#18
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,295	frag Yeah, I had a Marlin carbine paired to a L-frame Smith for a while, both zeroed for 125 factory JHP. From the carbine, the 125 load was just absolutely explosive on vermin and ferals.

December 6, 2014, 04:57 PM	#19
thephatboi Junior Member Join Date: January 13, 2010 Posts: 4	357/44 mag in marlins I have one of each in the limited run Marlin 16" 1894cp and 1894p rifles. I just love these things. They both gain alot from a rifle barrel. Never chronographed them but I will for sure say the 44 kicks ALOT harder (you wouldn't expect a pistol round to kick in rifle and hits alot harder. Both are very accurate as I was hitting a 4" mower blade stuck in the dirt in our front field at about 270 yards about 50% of the time, a bit easier with the 357, of course I was holding high on target, but pretty fun I'm sure the 357 would down a whitetail if well aimed but If I was hunting deer, I would for take the 44 just to be safe.

December 21, 2014, 08:11 PM	#20
greywolf444 Member Join Date: February 9, 2008 Posts: 16	I have killed deer with both in marlins. Both work very well. I load the 44 with 265gr cast over 9.5gr of unique. Sort of a pistol load out of the rifle. Still shoots thru both sides and they fall down. In the 357 its a 180gr cast over 16gr h110. Works as good as you need it to. Deer fall down. Pick one and use it. The 357 is more fun for playing at the range. I didn't buy them for brute force, but , for daily 'shooting what needs to be shot' duties at farm distaces they both can't be beat. My distances top out at around 100 yds and trajectory and power are fine out to there. I hunt in the timber for deer and 100 yds may not sound impressive but it is mighty far in the brush. If you are really wanting mainly a big game rifle the 44 wins on power, the 357 on versality with plinking and small game.Both kill deer. Remember, deer aren't that hard to kill. By my experience most guys go way overboard in power for deer. Really, using a 300 mag on deer in the timber? (it is way better if you are sitting in a long field) It works but not much fun to shoot on anything else. I'd rather shoot for fun most of the year.

December 22, 2014, 10:42 AM	#21
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	The .357 really benefits from carbine length Both of them do, but the level of performance gain for the .357 makes for a quite impressive camp gun.

December 22, 2014, 03:06 PM	#22
Mystro Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2004 Location: Central Pa. Posts: 1,528	I have really gone from the idea that the 44mag is a good deer caliber to it is a great deer caliber. Almost all deer I have shot with the 44mag from a handgun are bang-flop kills. These were from mid power 240 XTP loads out of a handgun. In a lever action the 44mag is about as good as they come as a versatile deer slayer. I have killed a few deer with the 357mag and 10mm. They were just o.k but the 44mag is in a completely different league. Fully expanded 240xtp recovered on the opposite side hide. __________________ "I'm a good guy with a gun" What do I care if I give up some freedom or rights?....The Goverment will take care of me. This kind of thinking is now in the majority and it should concern you. "Ask not what you can do for your country, but what free entitlements you can bleed from your country" Last edited by Mystro; December 22, 2014 at 03:13 PM.

January 5, 2015, 01:58 AM	#23
Kaliburz Senior Member Join Date: August 2, 2000 Location: Northwest Posts: 128	Nice shot! The 44 Mag will always have more energy then a 357 Mag. The reason I would want a 357 Mag lever action, is ammo compatibility- same ammo for revolver and lever gun. And two cal (38 Special & 357 Mag). Granted, 44 Special and 44 Mag also..... but the 38 and 357 is more common in places I go.

January 5, 2015, 02:06 AM	#24
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	.44 magnum makes more sense in a rifle barrel. You get the big bore factor, but much higher velocities than out of a handgun. Much more weight. Should be perfect for deer, or wilderness defense. A full power .44 magnum hard cast 300 grain SWC would do well on even a large bear coming out of a carbine. They also will deal a mighty blow for self defense if needed, with a good JHP.

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