Learn from my mistake......!!!

bswiv · June 6, 2010, 01:01 PM

So we finally got around to working on a couple of gator heads from last season. Last time we did this we followed a friends instructions explicitly. Head turned out perfect. Nice and uniform white with little or no separation of bone plates and only a tooth or two that had to be reattached.

In that instance we used WASHING SODA ( Sal Soda brand to be precise. ) in the water. Took a long time to boil out but end result was perfect.

This time decided that we'd save a few dollars and do as was suggested on a couple of Internet sites and substitute regular detergent for the Sal Soda. Seemed a reasonable idea as what the Sol Soda or Detergent is supposed to do is hasten not only the breakdown of the flesh but also the removal of oils from the bone.

Besides that the detergent was readily available and as we had two drums and two big heads it would save us a bunch of $ on the Soda and shipping.

And I will admit that at first it looked like we had made a good decision. Even though it did seem that it was taking longer to do the actual boiling at the time the heads initially looked nice and white. Sense things looked good we went ahead and soaked them in the industrial strength hydrogen peroxide solution for a couple of days.

But then, 3 or 4 days after removal from the peroxide, as the first picture shows, some patches of what looked like oil started to appear on the heads. And there was more smell than there should have been.

First I tried using Oven Cleaner to remove it. Did not work. Then I figured that I had not boiled them enough as there was still some smell. So I set a drum up and boiled them again. Even used more oven cleaner between rinsings and immersions. Figured it couldn't hurt.

After boiling set them in another bath of EXPENSIVE industrial strength hydrogen peroxide for 2 more days. When I pulled them out they looked good and white. Only problem I could see was that the second boiling had loosened some of the bone joints and detached a few teeth. Not a big problem I thought.

So I set them out to dry again. That's been 2 weeks ago now and as you can see from the last few pictures the discoloration has returned with a vengeance. And I might add that getting the bones and teeth back in correctly was more trouble than it looked like it would be. For some of the teeth I had to go get epoxy putty ( More expence! )to buttress the holes.

At this point I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to proceed. Hate the idea of boiling again but that may be the only solution.

Bottom line is, if you are going to do a head ( Gator or hog or deer or whatever. ) be 100% sure to use the RIGHT stuff the first time. Whatever my cheep self thought I was going to save has been eaten more than tenfold in time and aggravation trying to fix what I screwed up. Don't make the same mistake!!

kodiakbeer · June 6, 2010, 02:03 PM

Boiling may work fine on gators, but it's not a good idea with some mammal skulls. I destroyed a bear skull once by boiling it - the teeth shattered because the centers are hollow.

Scorch · June 6, 2010, 02:21 PM

bswiv-
Just FYI, washing soda is alkaline, and saponifies the fats and oils (makes them water soluble). Detergent has some soda in it, but it also contains detergents (obviously) designed to suspend the oils. You are not trying to suspend the oils, you are trying to dissolve them.

As for how to proceed now, it is not clear to me whether you boiled the heads in washing soda after you noticed the problem or whether you used detergent again. If you used detergent again, try using the washing soda. If you already tried washing then in soda, you may want to try scrubbing them with solvent alcohol, available at your local paint store. Be careful, it is extremely flammable!!

bswiv · June 6, 2010, 02:40 PM

("Just FYI, washing soda is alkaline, and saponifies the fats and oils (makes them water soluble). Detergent has some soda in it, but it also contains detergents (obviously) designed to suspend the oils. You are not trying to suspend the oils, you are trying to dissolve them.")

SCORCH:

That makes very good sense. Wish I had known the difference before. You are right in that I just boiled in detergent again.

What about simply soaking in the right stuff ( Washing Soda ) for a couple of days? Or is the heat still necessary even though all the meat is not gone?

Scorch · June 6, 2010, 02:46 PM

Chemical effectiveness depends on time, temperature, and concentration. Heating makes everything work faster, but be careful you don't cook it apart, as you have found out by the fact that the teeth are loosening. At this point, you might try soaking in the soda at room temp for a while to see if that helps, but I would try some heat just to make sure it gets going good.

tangara · June 6, 2010, 08:23 PM

Ok guy's

Arm & hammer supper washing soda is pure Sal-soda for like a three pound box for like $2.00 or $3.00 found at most grocery stores or Wal-Mart’s. It is the same stuff the taxidermy shops sell for $10-$12 pound. What it does is turn existing flesh to jelly and degreases the bones. You can also get industrial strength hydrogen peroxide at beauty supply stores for $5 to $10 a gallon

FrontSight · July 21, 2010, 09:22 AM

Question: If you use the Sal Soda from the start, do you still have to boil it, or do you just soak it instead?

And what about using something like a lye solution, made with sodium hydroxide and water (similar to how olives can be cured, but maybe stronger)?

Thanks!

hogdogs · July 21, 2010, 11:14 AM

bswiv, I am sure you can find a full sun location on your place... If so, paint a drum black with any black paint... set a lid on top to prevent heat loss to ambient air.

I bet that will get you 125-130* no problem... Might be a good trade off 'tween room temp and boiling...

Brent

June 6, 2010, 01:01 PM	#1
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	Learn from my mistake......!!! So we finally got around to working on a couple of gator heads from last season. Last time we did this we followed a friends instructions explicitly. Head turned out perfect. Nice and uniform white with little or no separation of bone plates and only a tooth or two that had to be reattached. In that instance we used WASHING SODA ( Sal Soda brand to be precise. ) in the water. Took a long time to boil out but end result was perfect. This time decided that we'd save a few dollars and do as was suggested on a couple of Internet sites and substitute regular detergent for the Sal Soda. Seemed a reasonable idea as what the Sol Soda or Detergent is supposed to do is hasten not only the breakdown of the flesh but also the removal of oils from the bone. Besides that the detergent was readily available and as we had two drums and two big heads it would save us a bunch of $ on the Soda and shipping. And I will admit that at first it looked like we had made a good decision. Even though it did seem that it was taking longer to do the actual boiling at the time the heads initially looked nice and white. Sense things looked good we went ahead and soaked them in the industrial strength hydrogen peroxide solution for a couple of days. But then, 3 or 4 days after removal from the peroxide, as the first picture shows, some patches of what looked like oil started to appear on the heads. And there was more smell than there should have been. First I tried using Oven Cleaner to remove it. Did not work. Then I figured that I had not boiled them enough as there was still some smell. So I set a drum up and boiled them again. Even used more oven cleaner between rinsings and immersions. Figured it couldn't hurt. After boiling set them in another bath of EXPENSIVE industrial strength hydrogen peroxide for 2 more days. When I pulled them out they looked good and white. Only problem I could see was that the second boiling had loosened some of the bone joints and detached a few teeth. Not a big problem I thought. So I set them out to dry again. That's been 2 weeks ago now and as you can see from the last few pictures the discoloration has returned with a vengeance. And I might add that getting the bones and teeth back in correctly was more trouble than it looked like it would be. For some of the teeth I had to go get epoxy putty ( More expence! )to buttress the holes. At this point I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to proceed. Hate the idea of boiling again but that may be the only solution. Bottom line is, if you are going to do a head ( Gator or hog or deer or whatever. ) be 100% sure to use the RIGHT stuff the first time. Whatever my cheep self thought I was going to save has been eaten more than tenfold in time and aggravation trying to fix what I screwed up. Don't make the same mistake!!

June 6, 2010, 02:21 PM	#3
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	bswiv- Just FYI, washing soda is alkaline, and saponifies the fats and oils (makes them water soluble). Detergent has some soda in it, but it also contains detergents (obviously) designed to suspend the oils. You are not trying to suspend the oils, you are trying to dissolve them. As for how to proceed now, it is not clear to me whether you boiled the heads in washing soda after you noticed the problem or whether you used detergent again. If you used detergent again, try using the washing soda. If you already tried washing then in soda, you may want to try scrubbing them with solvent alcohol, available at your local paint store. Be careful, it is extremely flammable!! __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

June 6, 2010, 02:46 PM	#5
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	Chemical effectiveness depends on time, temperature, and concentration. Heating makes everything work faster, but be careful you don't cook it apart, as you have found out by the fact that the teeth are loosening. At this point, you might try soaking in the soda at room temp for a while to see if that helps, but I would try some heat just to make sure it gets going good. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 21, 2010, 09:22 AM	#7
FrontSight Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2005 Posts: 1,712	Question: If you use the Sal Soda from the start, do you still have to boil it, or do you just soak it instead? And what about using something like a lye solution, made with sodium hydroxide and water (similar to how olives can be cured, but maybe stronger)? Thanks! __________________ To kill something as great as a duck just to smell the gunpowder is a crime against nature. - Alan Liere Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. - George Bernard Shaw

June 6, 2010, 02:03 PM	#2
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Boiling may work fine on gators, but it's not a good idea with some mammal skulls. I destroyed a bear skull once by boiling it - the teeth shattered because the centers are hollow.

June 6, 2010, 02:40 PM	#4
bswiv Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: NE FL....... Posts: 1,081	("Just FYI, washing soda is alkaline, and saponifies the fats and oils (makes them water soluble). Detergent has some soda in it, but it also contains detergents (obviously) designed to suspend the oils. You are not trying to suspend the oils, you are trying to dissolve them.") SCORCH: That makes very good sense. Wish I had known the difference before. You are right in that I just boiled in detergent again. What about simply soaking in the right stuff ( Washing Soda ) for a couple of days? Or is the heat still necessary even though all the meat is not gone?

June 6, 2010, 08:23 PM	#6
tangara Member Join Date: October 28, 2008 Location: South Dakota Posts: 28	Ok guy's Arm & hammer supper washing soda is pure Sal-soda for like a three pound box for like $2.00 or $3.00 found at most grocery stores or Wal-Mart’s. It is the same stuff the taxidermy shops sell for $10-$12 pound. What it does is turn existing flesh to jelly and degreases the bones. You can also get industrial strength hydrogen peroxide at beauty supply stores for $5 to $10 a gallon

July 21, 2010, 11:14 AM	#8
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	bswiv, I am sure you can find a full sun location on your place... If so, paint a drum black with any black paint... set a lid on top to prevent heat loss to ambient air. I bet that will get you 125-130* no problem... Might be a good trade off 'tween room temp and boiling... Brent