September 27, 2015, 07:48 AM | #1 |
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SBR ?
I have 3 AR pistols with sig arm braces. I want to go to SBR's
Can I build a SBR lower, engrave it and use it with all of my short barrel uppers legaly? I have a trust and $200 wouldn't be bad for a couple of rifles. |
September 27, 2015, 07:50 AM | #2 |
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Yep
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September 27, 2015, 07:51 AM | #3 |
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That's good news! I just received my stamp for my can. 4 Months and 3 weeks.
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September 27, 2015, 11:10 AM | #4 |
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To elaborate on the "yep"....
You can file a form 1 on any or all of your lowers. Once approved, install a real stock on that lower and use ANY length upper you want. It is legal to install a Rifle length upper if you want to and then go back to the SBR length at will I do not think its possible to turn that lower back into a pistol. I think the "once a Rifle (even a SBR) always a rifle" would come into play. For that reason i keep a cpl pistol lowers around, even though i have a number of SBR's. An additional benifit is that in order to travel out of your state with an SBR, you need BATFE's permission. Slap that short upper onto a Pistol lower and you are free to travel at will anywhere that pistol is legal. |
September 27, 2015, 11:38 AM | #5 |
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Sharkbite, fyi. Started life as a pistol can always go back to a pistol.
It's ATF Ruling 2011-4 |
September 27, 2015, 02:35 PM | #6 |
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That's an interesting question, because the SBR is a rifle or a weapon made from a rifle by its very nature. You're also crossing classes of firearms from Title I to Title II by going from Pistol to rifle.
So I have to wonder if ATF doesn't see it as creating an entirely new firearm as opposed to legally re-classifying one that you already have. If that's the case, although you could get the firearm removed from the registry, I don't know if it could go back to a pistol or if it would have to become a rifle. I'd be interested if anybody has more information on this, even though it's not relevant to me right now.
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September 27, 2015, 03:34 PM | #7 |
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Once you have a sbr lower (I have two) why in the world would you want to convert it back to a pistol? It's not any shorter if that's what your thinking.
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September 27, 2015, 04:46 PM | #8 |
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I'd want to convert it back because you don't need ATF's permission to cross state lines with a pistol.
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September 27, 2015, 08:35 PM | #9 |
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The form 1 makes it a Rifle, although a short barreled on. It has now been manufactured as a rifle. I dont think you can then convert that Rifle into a Pistol.
I dont know of an actuall ruling on this point, but it stands to reason that a pistol just converted into a rifle is good to go based on the rulling above. Once that firearm is registered as a rifle, how do you go back to a pistol. Once an AR lower is papered as a rifle its a rifle forever. |
September 28, 2015, 01:09 AM | #10 | |
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September 28, 2015, 01:16 AM | #11 | |
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September 28, 2015, 01:34 AM | #12 | |
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So any lower receiver you buy can be made into either a pistol or a rifle per federal law. Technically, if you build a lower into a rifle first, you can't build it into a pistol. But if you first built it into a pistol, you can then go back and forth between a pistol or rifle configuration. But I don't see how the ATF could ever know which configuration you built your lower into first, so that seems completely unenforceable to me. (I'm definitely NOT recommending that anyone break the law, but I'm just pointing out how unenforceable that law is.) To get back to the subject of building an SBR lower back into a pistol, I'm sure you can put pistol parts on it, but I don't know if that changes its official designation to a pistol or if it stays an SBR. I do know that you can make a Title II SBR into a Title I rifle by putting a 16" barrel on it, so I wouldn't be surprised if you could make it back into a pistol if it started that way.
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September 28, 2015, 01:10 PM | #13 | ||
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Put a shoulder stock on a Glock, Browning Hi Power, 1911 or any other pistol and you have made an SBR. (and the SBR was never a rifle). Decide you don't like it? Sell the shoulder stock and notify ATF NFA Branch that the firearm is no longer in SBR configuration. They can remove it from the NFA registry. Quote:
A frame, receiver or AR lower (even a complete lower with shoulder stock) is exactly that.....a frame, receiver or lower. It is not a handgun or long gun until completed. It will be transferred on the Form 4473 as an "Other Firearm". It cannot be a rifle until both shoulder stock and a rifled barrel are attached. If built as a pistol first, it can be configured into a rifle and later back into a pistol. The old "Once a rifle, always a rifle" mantra was ruled moot thanks to Thompson Center in 1992. It took ATF nineteen years to finally issue a ruling. The new mantra is "First a rifle always a rifle and first a pistol, can return to a pistol".
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September 28, 2015, 06:33 PM | #14 |
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The problem with all the above statements. Is that by doing a form 1 you are making a RIFLE. That Glock pistol once you do a form 1 and it is approved, it is now a short barreled RIFLE.
That gun is legally a rifle at that point. Not a bare receiver. Not a pistol. But a RIFLE and registered as such. |
September 28, 2015, 06:50 PM | #15 | |
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SBR ?
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It's not a problem at all. ATF Ruling 2011-4 says if you take a pistol and make it into a legal rifle you can make it a pistol again without worry. If you make your pistol into a registered SBR, it's still a "legal rifle." Nothing prevents you from turning it back into a pistol. Here's the part you you're gonna have a fit with: If you turn it back into a pistol, you follow all the rules as if it's a pistol. So you can cross state lines with it, without a 5320.20 You're stuck believing that old mantra "once a rule, always a rifle" and I'm not sure we're going to convince you that is not true anymore. If it starts as a pistol you can change the configuration as you wish, provided you have the right paperwork. Just because it's in the NFA registry as an SBR doesn't mean it has to stay in the SBR configuration. |
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September 28, 2015, 10:35 PM | #16 |
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If i take a pistol (lets say an AR) and put a 16" upper and a stock on it. Now i sell that gun in that conifig, it goes thru a dealer and the 4473 lists that gun as a "Rifle"....it is NOW a rifle. It can not be made into a pistol again.
By doing a form 1 you have in fact registered that lower as a RIFLE. As such it does not meet the requirements of the T/C ruling. A gun that has ever been PAPERED as a rifle cannot be turned into a pistol. Sorry, im not trying to argue but you are not talking about the same thing. A pistol that has a rifle length barrel and stock added never changes classification. Once that gun is registered as a Rifle. Its a rifle. |
September 29, 2015, 10:09 AM | #17 | |
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(I do concede that a firearm that is on a 4473 as "rifle" would be hard to argue that it started life as a pistol or as a receiver. However, it may not be impossible to do so.) The original manufacturer of that pistol makes the determination if it is manufactured as a pistol, rifle or "other" (Meaning lower receiver). So once that firearm leaves the shop, that serial number is recorded. If that receiver leaves the shop as a pistol, then it's "originally a pistol" if it leaves as a rifle, then it's "originally a rifle" if it leaves as a SBR, then it's "orginally a Short Barrel Rifle." If it leaves the mfg as a pistol or lower receiver, and I want to change that configuration (which I'm legitimately legal to do) then it becomes whatever that configuration is. So if I take an AR pistol, and put a 16" barrel and stock on it, then it's a rifle. I can always make it a pistol again if I choose. The key is that it has to start life as a "pistol." (or a stripped receiver built into a pistol first.) If I choose to make it an NFA registered SBR, I can do that. I can at any time remove that firearm from that registry. When I do, I can make it back into a pistol again. A "Legal Rifle" wether that's a REGISTERED SBR or a 16" Rifle not on any regsitry, doesn't matter. You are stating that once you put it on the registry it's forever stuck in that configuration. It's not. You can remove a firearm from that regstiry at any time. Once removed from the registry, you can make it a pistol again if you wish, as long as it started out as a pistol. (Again according to ATF Ruling 2011-4) |
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September 29, 2015, 10:24 AM | #18 |
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Brother, thanks for taking the time to type that all out...
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Since there is no actual BATFE dertimination on this exact issue its all conjecture anyway. Cheers... |
September 29, 2015, 03:56 PM | #19 | ||
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https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download Quote:
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September 29, 2015, 04:08 PM | #20 | ||||||
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The dealer MUST record the firearm in the configuration as he receives it. That doesn't change the fact that it may have been a pistol prior to being transferred to that dealer and does not change the applicability of ATF Ruling 2011-4. Quote:
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Receivers/frames/lowers are receivers/frames/lowers.......period. There is no such animal as a "pistol receiver" or "rifle receiver" or "pistol lower" or "rifle lower". Until the firearm receiver is completely built as a pistol or rifle....its still just a receiver. Even if the receiver can only be built into a rifle or only into a handgun.........its still just a frame or receiver. And transferred as an Other Firearm on the Form 4473. Quote:
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September 30, 2015, 04:33 PM | #21 |
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I think I'll just keep my arm braces. Way to much BS for a SBR!
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September 30, 2015, 06:05 PM | #22 | |
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Say you wanted to buy an SBR from the shop I work at here in Washington. All you have to do is go to a website like 199trust.com, buy their $59 NFA trust, print it out, get it notarized, and make a copy of it. Then come on into our shop and pick out an SBR. Then we'll help you fill out two copies of the Form 4, then you pay for the SBR and give us a $200 check or money order made out to the BATFE. That's it on your end until the tax stamp comes back. From the moment you picked out the SBR to the moment you left the store could easily take only 15 minutes. We'll send the Form 4s to the ATF along with a copy of your trust and the $200 check. Then we wait about 4-5 months for the ATF to send one Form 4 back with the tax stamp affixed. Then you come in and fill out a 4473 and we do the instant background check just like you were buying a regular rifle. The hardest part for most people is waiting for the tax stamp to come back. Otherwise, it's nowhere near as complicated as many people make it out to be. Other than the time it took you to set up the trust (which can be pretty easy if you use a simple online trust service), it only takes two 15 minute visits to your dealer.
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September 30, 2015, 07:57 PM | #23 |
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I'm 60 days into the wait for my 5th stamp. Definitely the only part that sucks with the whole process.
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October 3, 2015, 05:22 AM | #24 |
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I already have a Arms Trust and I want to build my SBR lower
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October 3, 2015, 11:23 AM | #25 | |
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