Jeff Cooper on Point Shooting - Page 3

David Armstrong · October 13, 2008, 12:21 PM

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Strange how so many are angry that I began this thread.
To me knowledge is power and the past should be known.

Equally strange, IMO, is the number who consistently (and intentionally in some cases, IMO) twist and distort the position of the target focus camp to try to make it something nobody on that side has said.

Bogie · October 13, 2008, 01:55 PM

Guys, time spent aiming can be time spent ensuring a hit, or it can be time spent letting the other guy wing a lucky one at you.

I'll take administering a fast random torso shot before the bad guy can manage one himself any day.

Face it - it is NOT that hard to hit a 12x18 target without a lot of conscious thought at under 10 yards.

And if I remember correctly, a few years back, the average "gunfight" was something like 1.1 rounds fired... Which means that there were a LOT of cases where one guy managed to shoot first.

I suspect that it is rather distracting to the bad guy when he finds himself with a sucking chest wound.

This is NOT a method that can be used to shoot tiny little groups. What it is is a method that is used to sling a lot of lead into a specific general area, in hopes that you'll get there firstest with the mostest.

But you're not going to like it if you try it with a gun that doesn't point naturally to you.

TRY IT. It won't hurt. And it can be beneficial.

BTW, I also shoot Weaver, etc., etc... Whatever works. I try to be flexible.

And, FWIW, the Weaver stance, and most of what some folks seem to think is the perfect tradition, was really looked down upon when it was introduced... A man was supposed to hold the pistol out at arm's length, and sight along his arm...

Deaf Smith · October 13, 2008, 04:47 PM

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I consider shooting the SOB to the ground while rapidly closing in with rapid fire multiple hits to be the objective when the range is close and cover is not an option.

Matt,

Not everone will have a 17 shooter and only one opponent.

You know, even Cirillo did have a 'silhouette point' method he developed as an alternative. You ended up having to sort of 'see' the back of the slide to get the index.

But even then, he said alternative, not as the only way to do the same thing at the same range.

Quote:

Then again, hasn't D.R. Middlebrooks won a lot of competitive events with point shooting?

Not at first Matt. What he did was become so good he could index and not rely so much on the sights. Everything became a sort of type 1 focus for him.

Practice for a time and you can do that, which is one of the things Cooper's presentation was to develope. The abilty for an automatic index. The 'flash sight picture' was to verify that alighment.

Quote:

Those are the basics if you want to be a competition shooter. If you just want to survive a shootout, target-focus seems the proper basics. easier and faster to learn to achieve the desired goal.

What david? You get this from some dictionary you pulled of the air? Basics not part of suvival of a shootout? Tell that to the military.Tell that to the police. Tell that to.. oh, to your dictionary.

David Armstrong · October 13, 2008, 06:57 PM

Quote:

What david? You get this from some dictionary you pulled of the air? Basics not part of suvival of a shootout?

Huh?? Deaf, in a long history of posts that are absolutely un-related to what is being discussed or what was said, that has to be at the top. I haven't the faintest idea what "basics not part of suvival of a shootout" is supposed to mean, much less what is in reference to.

Bogie · October 13, 2008, 07:33 PM

I think it's more important to focus on your target (and see what they're about to do) than to focus on your sights... You can bring the sights to the target, but you cannot bring the target to the sights.

Deaf Smith · October 13, 2008, 07:40 PM

No doubt you don't david. No doubt at all.

David Armstrong · October 14, 2008, 01:58 PM

OK, you apparently can't explain it even when you wrote it. That's cool.

Bogie · October 14, 2008, 03:47 PM

I think that someone needs some range time.

BOTH of y'all.

One of you needs to hang some targets out at 25 yards, and work on your bullseye accuracy skills, and the other needs to stick some pie plates up at 7 yards, and work on your "broad side of a bad guy" skills.

Okay?

Can we agree to that?

Do NOT make me let the whoopass fairy out of her cage.

andrewskaggs · October 14, 2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogie

Do NOT make me let the whoopass fairy out of her cage.

You owe me a new keyboard. I spewed coke on this one.

David Armstrong · October 14, 2008, 04:05 PM

Quote:

One of you needs to hang some targets out at 25 yards, and work on your bullseye accuracy skills, and the other needs to stick some pie plates up at 7 yards, and work on your "broad side of a bad guy" skills.

Well, given that deaf says he works on point shooting regularly, and I regularly practice at the 25 yard line, I don't think you've got it quite right!

Deaf Smith · October 14, 2008, 08:43 PM

Quote:

One of you needs to hang some targets out at 25 yards, and work on your bullseye accuracy skills, and the other needs to stick some pie plates up at 7 yards, and work on your "broad side of a bad guy" skills.

Bogie,

I'll just say I've got IDPA (current) expert or above in all classifications. When in IPSC I made class 'A' using a P-35 back when we had man .vs. man matches like the Flying "M". I've competed in NRA silhouette, IHMSA silhouette, three gun matches. Been to at least a dozen schools of shooting and FOF. And yea, I do practice point shooting often.

So I might know a bit about shooting, long range or short, slow or fast.

I won't even get into where I'm at in the martial arts....

**Shane Tuttle** · October 14, 2008, 09:13 PM

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I won't even get into where I'm at in the martial arts....

That's a relief. For a minute there I thought I acidentally typed in monster.com and was reading someone's resume for a mall ninja trainee position.

Nice to have the training. But, it doesn't mean jack-squat if you can't follow through using it in real life.

And that's a major point of my posts. It's good to have various training. But unless one has had several different real life defensive situations to truly see if one can follow through, it's all theory on what works best for that specific person.

Deaf Smith · October 15, 2008, 05:00 PM

Quote:

It's good to have various training. But unless one has had several different real life defensive situations to truly see if one can follow through, it's all theory on what works best for that specific person.

Tuttle8,

Do you know how many 'real life defensive situations' Rex Applegate was in? Especially before and during the time he formulated his theories?

You know how many times Jim Cirillo was in 'real life defensive situations' before he was a firearms trainer for the NYPD?

Oh, and I have been through two. No I haven't shot anyone but one burgler (at gunpoint) and one purse snatcher. Nothing big, didn't beat up anyone, but I've been in a few.

And were did I mention 'specific persons'?

**Shane Tuttle** · October 15, 2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

And were did I mention 'specific persons'?

I didn't say you did. I did.

Just because Cirillo, Applegate, and others that you mentioned were apparently able to perfectly execute their skills in a real life combat situation doesn't necessarily mean others will do the same.

All the "fun and games" of shooting different targets at different angles and stances does NOT prove that you WILL fire that gun the most prudent method when your life is about to end.

I honestly don't care who you list as "experts" including yourself. Thrust an average joe like myself and the general population and everybody will act differently....very differently.

Quote:

Oh, and I have been through two. No I haven't shot anyone but one burgler (at gunpoint) and one purse snatcher. Nothing big, didn't beat up anyone, but I've been in a few.

So, have you or haven't you been through a defensive situation? You claim that you have, then you haven't. You claim that you haven't shot anyone, but then you did...twice.

If you haven't had to pull that trigger to stop an assailant, then you haven't had the dubious honor of proving the theories of your training to yourself.

Quote:

I won't even get into where I'm at in the martial arts....

I must pry....You must be Matt Hamill. If so, I want your autograph.

pax · October 15, 2008, 06:25 PM

Three pages seems to be about the extreme outer limit for most pointshooting threads. Mostly not even that long. Dunno why, but there it is.

When we get out the rulers and start measuring the size of everyone's members, it's probably time to do something else for awhile.

Closed.

pax

October 13, 2008, 01:55 PM	#52
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	Guys, time spent aiming can be time spent ensuring a hit, or it can be time spent letting the other guy wing a lucky one at you. I'll take administering a fast random torso shot before the bad guy can manage one himself any day. Face it - it is NOT that hard to hit a 12x18 target without a lot of conscious thought at under 10 yards. And if I remember correctly, a few years back, the average "gunfight" was something like 1.1 rounds fired... Which means that there were a LOT of cases where one guy managed to shoot first. I suspect that it is rather distracting to the bad guy when he finds himself with a sucking chest wound. This is NOT a method that can be used to shoot tiny little groups. What it is is a method that is used to sling a lot of lead into a specific general area, in hopes that you'll get there firstest with the mostest. But you're not going to like it if you try it with a gun that doesn't point naturally to you. TRY IT. It won't hurt. And it can be beneficial. BTW, I also shoot Weaver, etc., etc... Whatever works. I try to be flexible. And, FWIW, the Weaver stance, and most of what some folks seem to think is the perfect tradition, was really looked down upon when it was introduced... A man was supposed to hold the pistol out at arm's length, and sight along his arm... __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

October 13, 2008, 07:33 PM	#55
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	I think it's more important to focus on your target (and see what they're about to do) than to focus on your sights... You can bring the sights to the target, but you cannot bring the target to the sights. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

October 13, 2008, 07:40 PM	#56
Deaf Smith Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2000 Location: Texican! Posts: 4,453	No doubt you don't david. No doubt at all. __________________ “To you who call yourselves ‘men of peace,’ I say, you are not safe without men of action by your side” Thucydides

October 14, 2008, 03:47 PM	#58
Bogie Senior Member Join Date: June 5, 2000 Location: Job hunting on the road... Posts: 3,827	I think that someone needs some range time. BOTH of y'all. One of you needs to hang some targets out at 25 yards, and work on your bullseye accuracy skills, and the other needs to stick some pie plates up at 7 yards, and work on your "broad side of a bad guy" skills. Okay? Can we agree to that? Do NOT make me let the whoopass fairy out of her cage. __________________ Job hunting, but helping a friend out at www.vikingmachineusa.com - and learning the finer aspects of becoming a precision machinist. And making the world's greatest bottle openers!

October 15, 2008, 06:25 PM	#65
pax Senior Member Join Date: May 16, 2000 Location: In a state of flux Posts: 7,520	Three pages seems to be about the extreme outer limit for most pointshooting threads. Mostly not even that long. Dunno why, but there it is. When we get out the rulers and start measuring the size of everyone's members, it's probably time to do something else for awhile. Closed. pax __________________ Kathy Jackson My personal website: Cornered Cat

October 14, 2008, 01:58 PM	#57
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	OK, you apparently can't explain it even when you wrote it. That's cool.