223 brass cut down for 380?

Clark · August 23, 2000, 11:54 PM

I can get cut down .223 brass to fit in my .380 despite the smaller extraction grouve.

The space for powder and bullet is smaller and I think I would need a .355" reamer to get a bullet in.

Has anyone done this?
I know there was some famous article about how to use .223 brass for 38 Super.

Big Bunny · August 24, 2000, 12:56 AM

I suppose you mean .380ACP ? A fiddly job and brass swarf-encrusted - I bet....... I have heard of .44 Supermag from .308W cases and .223 from .223 blanks
- but never .223 into .380 cases.

The thickness of the .223 brass might be a problem maybe...try it and see!

When the supply of cases dry up due to government bans I may well try it myself!

------------------
If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately !
Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.

DaMan · August 24, 2000, 10:40 AM

I've seen where it was done. It IS possible, but not practical.

The .223 case is sized with the .380ACP sizing die, trimmed to length, and then reamed to an internal dimension of .351".

I'd just stock up on some commecial .380 cases! MUCH easier! ;-)

Regards! DaMan

[This message has been edited by DaMan (edited August 31, 2000).]

Clark · August 30, 2000, 11:42 PM

Well I was going to try to make a high pressure round, but it seems that mixed used .380 brass will work for my "Hellish loads without incident" experement.

THE FOLLOWING DATA IS FROM AN ATTEMPT TO BLOW UP A GUN AND SHOULD NOT TRIED!

Alliant data: 380 90 gr XTP 4.8 gr Power Pistol .960" 3.7" barrel 1,105
fps 21,500 psi
Shot tonite: 380 90 gr GD 7.6 gr Power Pistol .984" 3" barrel Berreta
1934

It kicks like a 9mm. Makes the factory 380 seem like duds. The cases swell .005"

Johnny Guest · August 31, 2000, 12:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clark:
I can get cut down .223 brass to fit in my .380 despite the smaller extraction grouve. <SNIP>

I know there was some famous article about how to use .223 brass for 38 Super.[/quote]

Sure was--I believe it was in Guns & Ammo magazine, in early to mid 1970s. It comes to mind that either Jeff Cooper did the article or had something to do with it. It entailed both an attempt to get better accuracy out of the "old" .38 Super, which did a sort of half a$$ job of headspacing on the semi-rim. The experimenter got a Bar-Sto barrel set up to headspace on case mouth. In order to get cases of truly uniform length and quality, they cut, trimmed and reamed .223 brass. Don't recall if GI brass or commercial. They installed a longer barrel--perhaps a standard five-inch 1911 style barrel in a Commander. .

After everything was up and running, with much improved accuracy, they found that the new cases were FAR stronger than factory Super. It was just natural that they tried invigorating the Super, which was, by this time, merely a slightly warm 9 mm. They called the "new" cartridge the Super Nine, I think, and touted it as a nifty trail gun idea, in the lightweight Commander

I have no recall of the velocities claimed nor the components used to get there. Sorry, Clark, I can't give you anything to exceed. A few years later, though, the IPSC crowd was souping up the Super and using heavier bullets, in an effort to "Make Major" power factor with the .36 bullets. In fact, they may have done all the destructomorph experimentation possible in this caliber.

That whole line of experimentation was just something which didn't interest me at the time, so I didn'lt pay a lot of attention. You see, .45 ACP already MAKES Major, thank you very much. [He said, smugly.] Yes, the .38 Super DID have 9-shot magazines, but again, the project didn't seem worth the effort, to me.

Anyhow, Clark, PLEASE be careful, amigo, in your various experiments.

Best,
Johnny

DaMan · August 31, 2000, 09:42 AM

Clark, using regular .380 ACP cases is the best way to go for your high velocity project.

Cases converted from .223 Rem cases would have less case capacity than normal .380 ACP cases. This would mean you'd have to reduce charges to get safe operating pressures.

Remember, using thicker brass will NOT enable your gun to handle higher pressure loads!

I think at 1,100 fps with a 90 gr. bullet, you've about reached maximum velocity you can safely expect from the .380 ACP. I'd be happy with that load and call it a day!

It would be safer to send your loads into the powder company's technicians and let them test it on their pressure testing equipment. It may cost some money, but much cheaper than blowing up a pistol or injuring yourself!

Regards! DaMan

Clark · September 1, 2000, 08:36 AM

I upped the above load by 1.0 gr last night.

The .380 action is starting to show stress [slide binds on a burr] and the .380 brass is really starting to bulge. I can't go further and will have to back off for high quanity loads.

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited September 01, 2000).]

alan · September 1, 2000, 10:53 PM

Some time back, I saw an article dealing with using 223 brass to make 38 Super cases. As I recall, aside from the obvious shortening, a lot of case reaming was involved, due to extra case thickness in the 223 brass.

While the project was claimed to produce a much stronger 38 Super case, than was then available, why would anyone want to even try to make 380 cases likle that, when you can buy them.

August 23, 2000, 11:54 PM	#1
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I can get cut down .223 brass to fit in my .380 despite the smaller extraction grouve. The space for powder and bullet is smaller and I think I would need a .355" reamer to get a bullet in. Has anyone done this? I know there was some famous article about how to use .223 brass for 38 Super.

August 24, 2000, 12:56 AM	#2
Big Bunny Senior Member Join Date: August 9, 1999 Location: New South Wales - Australia Posts: 605	I suppose you mean .380ACP ? A fiddly job and brass swarf-encrusted - I bet....... I have heard of .44 Supermag from .308W cases and .223 from .223 blanks - but never .223 into .380 cases. The thickness of the .223 brass might be a problem maybe...try it and see! When the supply of cases dry up due to government bans I may well try it myself! ------------------ If we shooting sportspersons don't hang together... we will all hang separately ! Never knock another's different shooting interest or discipline...REMEMBER we are all but leaves on the same tree of freedom.

August 24, 2000, 10:40 AM	#3
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	I've seen where it was done. It IS possible, but not practical. The .223 case is sized with the .380ACP sizing die, trimmed to length, and then reamed to an internal dimension of .351". I'd just stock up on some commecial .380 cases! MUCH easier! ;-) Regards! DaMan [This message has been edited by DaMan (edited August 31, 2000).]

August 30, 2000, 11:42 PM	#4
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Well I was going to try to make a high pressure round, but it seems that mixed used .380 brass will work for my "Hellish loads without incident" experement. THE FOLLOWING DATA IS FROM AN ATTEMPT TO BLOW UP A GUN AND SHOULD NOT TRIED! Alliant data: 380 90 gr XTP 4.8 gr Power Pistol .960" 3.7" barrel 1,105 fps 21,500 psi Shot tonite: 380 90 gr GD 7.6 gr Power Pistol .984" 3" barrel Berreta 1934 It kicks like a 9mm. Makes the factory 380 seem like duds. The cases swell .005"

August 31, 2000, 12:49 AM	#5
Johnny Guest Moderator in Memoriam Join Date: August 28, 1999 Location: North Texas Posts: 4,123	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clark: I can get cut down .223 brass to fit in my .380 despite the smaller extraction grouve. <SNIP> I know there was some famous article about how to use .223 brass for 38 Super.[/quote] Sure was--I believe it was in Guns & Ammo magazine, in early to mid 1970s. It comes to mind that either Jeff Cooper did the article or had something to do with it. It entailed both an attempt to get better accuracy out of the "old" .38 Super, which did a sort of half a$$ job of headspacing on the semi-rim. The experimenter got a Bar-Sto barrel set up to headspace on case mouth. In order to get cases of truly uniform length and quality, they cut, trimmed and reamed .223 brass. Don't recall if GI brass or commercial. They installed a longer barrel--perhaps a standard five-inch 1911 style barrel in a Commander. . After everything was up and running, with much improved accuracy, they found that the new cases were FAR stronger than factory Super. It was just natural that they tried invigorating the Super, which was, by this time, merely a slightly warm 9 mm. They called the "new" cartridge the Super Nine, I think, and touted it as a nifty trail gun idea, in the lightweight Commander I have no recall of the velocities claimed nor the components used to get there. Sorry, Clark, I can't give you anything to exceed. A few years later, though, the IPSC crowd was souping up the Super and using heavier bullets, in an effort to "Make Major" power factor with the .36 bullets. In fact, they may have done all the destructomorph experimentation possible in this caliber. That whole line of experimentation was just something which didn't interest me at the time, so I didn'lt pay a lot of attention. You see, .45 ACP already MAKES Major, thank you very much. [He said, smugly.] Yes, the .38 Super DID have 9-shot magazines, but again, the project didn't seem worth the effort, to me. Anyhow, Clark, PLEASE be careful, amigo, in your various experiments. Best, Johnny

August 31, 2000, 09:42 AM	#6
DaMan Senior Member Join Date: July 16, 2000 Posts: 222	Clark, using regular .380 ACP cases is the best way to go for your high velocity project. Cases converted from .223 Rem cases would have less case capacity than normal .380 ACP cases. This would mean you'd have to reduce charges to get safe operating pressures. Remember, using thicker brass will NOT enable your gun to handle higher pressure loads! I think at 1,100 fps with a 90 gr. bullet, you've about reached maximum velocity you can safely expect from the .380 ACP. I'd be happy with that load and call it a day! It would be safer to send your loads into the powder company's technicians and let them test it on their pressure testing equipment. It may cost some money, but much cheaper than blowing up a pistol or injuring yourself! Regards! DaMan

September 1, 2000, 08:36 AM	#7
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	I upped the above load by 1.0 gr last night. The .380 action is starting to show stress [slide binds on a burr] and the .380 brass is really starting to bulge. I can't go further and will have to back off for high quanity loads. [This message has been edited by Clark (edited September 01, 2000).]

September 1, 2000, 10:53 PM	#8
alan Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 1999 Posts: 3,847	Some time back, I saw an article dealing with using 223 brass to make 38 Super cases. As I recall, aside from the obvious shortening, a lot of case reaming was involved, due to extra case thickness in the 223 brass. While the project was claimed to produce a much stronger 38 Super case, than was then available, why would anyone want to even try to make 380 cases likle that, when you can buy them.