Vee-Jujitsu?

MK11 · August 9, 2001, 07:41 AM

I've done Tae Kwon Do for years and I really enjoy it, but I'm looking for something with more emphasis on practical defense. There is another martial arts school nearby that teaches "Vee-Jujitsu," which it describes as a combination of jujitsu, Muy Thai, Arnis and some Aikido. I'm going to check it out next week, but if anyone has any knowledge, I'd appreciate some feedback. They describe it as a "system" which makes me leery.

Mort · August 9, 2001, 07:29 PM

"System" in the sense of a synthesis of arts which is taught systematically.

Professor Vee was an amazing martial artist, and the art he taught was amazing. However, look at these guys and decide for yourself.

btuff · August 10, 2001, 02:42 PM

They have some video clips on their website (www.veearnisjitsu.com). From what I've seen and heard you should consider yourself lucky to have a school nearby and check it out for youself.

NightFighter · August 12, 2001, 04:06 PM

MK11, if your looking for something with an emphasis on
self-protection, I would recommend Bujinkan Ninjutsu. This Art
clearly earned it's reputation in feudal Japan and certainly lives
up to it today. It goes by other names now such as Budo Taijutsu.
It is so effective the the British SAS Special Forces are using it
as their choosen method of unarmed combat vs modern CQB.
Take a look for yourself and find a good instructor.

Skorzeny · August 12, 2001, 08:55 PM

Oh, boy, here we go again...

Hate to be tangential here, but "Ninjutsu" of Feudal Japan has not survived to modernity (nor would it be appropriate even if it has), DESPITE what Saturday afternoon Ninja movies show. In fact, a Ninja (if such a thing were actually real) was nothing more than a trained swordsman acting as an assassin.

Next someone will be telling me that "only a Ninja can kill a Ninja" and that you will have to go to a mountaintop in Japan to find a real one, except for a low price of $250 per month you can learn from "the only Gaijin ever to step into the secretive world of Ninja."

Skorzeny

NightFighter · August 12, 2001, 09:55 PM

Skorzeny, just out of curiosity have you ever studied
Ninjutsu or Taijutsu? The system I am referring to is not
the fake Hollywood stuff that you see on movies but authentic
armed and unarmed combat. Combat systems that have survived
1000 years, if you look at a lot of martial arts out there, they
have very brief histories some not older than 70 years. Taijutsu
has survived throughout the ages because of its effectiveness on
the battlefield and in modern day situations. I realise there are
a lot of glory seekers and money grabbers out there giving the
true art a bad reputation and Hollywood certainly does that.
But I am speaking from personal experience having used the art
in real confrontations.

Spectre · August 12, 2001, 11:26 PM

Nightfighter,

Welcome to The Firing Line! Glad to have you.

The arts you study are more correctly called kobudo, not ninjutsu. Of the nine Ryu, only 3 (IIRC) are, in fact, deemed ninjutsu lineages, with Togakure Ryu being the most famous. (Hatsumi is, of course, really making his own school as well, so that would make 10.)

As has already been intimated, there is a lot of misunderstanding of what "ninjutsu" was. There are tactics in dedicated "Samurai" schools that were called ninjutsu as well (to encompass such items as night work, b&e, and small unit tactics). Many ideas about ninja derive from Japanese fiction and theater, including the black suit ("shinobi shozoku") .

So, in summation, the arts you study are more just traditional Japanese battlefield arts. We in the US have actually seen very little of the "ninja" schools, even in the "x-kans" (Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan). You will give yourself more credence- and, in fact, be more correct- if you just drop mentioning ninja, ninjutsu, or (perhaps) even ninpo when you describe what you study.

I must say I take some umbrage to even mentioning kobudo being taught to SMU's (Special Forces, Force Recon, SAS, etc). There are several reasons for this. For one thing, individuals members of Special Military Units can take whatever instruction they want, and the teacher who taught them can then claim to have taught Seals, or whatever. Big deal. Secondly, the very nature of these arts makes them unsuited for quick integration into a modern fighting unit's repertoire. Waiting for that sword strike from behind is not really something Joe Grunt, Snakeater Extraordinaire, really has time to train for.

Folk like Skorzeny are, I believe, put off by two things. The most obvious is the poor quality of some senior American Bujinkan instructors. (I will admit I started training under Stephen Hayes. I was quite happy when my initial six months were up, and I could move on; I could already tell I wasn't getting "the real deal". Before I move on, let me say something nice about Steve: his wife is great- and very dangerous- and his kids, when I knew them, were absolutely super.) I have seen a Bujinkan "10th dan" (the same one who offers the black belt by video course) who could not fight his way out of a paper bag. It would be very amusing to pit Skorzeny against him; in unarmed combat, I'd give 4 to 1 odds on Skorzeny without hesitation. The second, and not quite so obvious problem some martial artists have, is the debatable history of the lineages that compose the curriculum. There is an easy way to handle this. (I'm quoting, here.) Shut up and train. You can tell when someone is genuinely dangerous, by how they move. If you're not with someone in person, you'll never know, regardless of how well they "talk the talk".

Ninpo ikkan!

John

Spectre · August 12, 2001, 11:49 PM

MK11,

I would probably choose a system that's been around long enough to develop a reputation.

I study, and believe in, traditional, very "old school" Japanese arts. Many of them are a total system, that can teach your body both armed and unarmed defense. The problem for many is, that these systems take a lot of time to integrate. If you are willing to devote a large amount of time, you may want to visit someplace like www.e-budo.com for a recommendation on kobudo in your area. (Some karate organizations bill themselves as kobudo, but this is in error.)

If, like most Americans, you have a limited amount of time you want to devote, I would suggest something like FMA or Muay Thai for the striking arts, and (if you desire) BJJ or judo for grappling. FMA will also have the advantage of teaching you armed combat as well.

Good luck!

Skorzeny · August 13, 2001, 02:15 AM

Spectre:

Domo Arigato Gozaimashida for your eloquent post! You elaborated, in a fashion that I did not, exactly why "folks like" me are put off.

But only a 4-to-1 odds against a guy "who could not fight his way out of a paper bag"? Does that mean I get 3-to-1 or less against the paper bag itself?

In all seriousness, I think that I would win, because unless I'm armed, I'd be running in the opposite direction utilizing my considerable track & field experience (800 meter sprint anyone?).

Skorzeny

Spectre · August 13, 2001, 10:33 AM

Do itashima****e.

Life is too weird to give you better odds. The ceiling could fall, or something!

August 9, 2001, 07:41 AM	#1
MK11 Senior Member Join Date: April 26, 2001 Posts: 577	Vee-Jujitsu? I've done Tae Kwon Do for years and I really enjoy it, but I'm looking for something with more emphasis on practical defense. There is another martial arts school nearby that teaches "Vee-Jujitsu," which it describes as a combination of jujitsu, Muy Thai, Arnis and some Aikido. I'm going to check it out next week, but if anyone has any knowledge, I'd appreciate some feedback. They describe it as a "system" which makes me leery.

August 12, 2001, 04:06 PM	#4
NightFighter Junior Member Join Date: August 1, 2001 Posts: 2	MK11, if your looking for something with an emphasis on self-protection, I would recommend Bujinkan Ninjutsu. This Art clearly earned it's reputation in feudal Japan and certainly lives up to it today. It goes by other names now such as Budo Taijutsu. It is so effective the the British SAS Special Forces are using it as their choosen method of unarmed combat vs modern CQB. Take a look for yourself and find a good instructor. Last edited by NightFighter; August 12, 2001 at 05:28 PM.

August 12, 2001, 08:55 PM	#5
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Oh, boy, here we go again... Hate to be tangential here, but "Ninjutsu" of Feudal Japan has not survived to modernity (nor would it be appropriate even if it has), DESPITE what Saturday afternoon Ninja movies show. In fact, a Ninja (if such a thing were actually real) was nothing more than a trained swordsman acting as an assassin. Next someone will be telling me that "only a Ninja can kill a Ninja" and that you will have to go to a mountaintop in Japan to find a real one, except for a low price of $250 per month you can learn from "the only Gaijin ever to step into the secretive world of Ninja." Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

August 13, 2001, 02:15 AM	#9
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	Spectre: Domo Arigato Gozaimashida for your eloquent post! You elaborated, in a fashion that I did not, exactly why "folks like" me are put off. But only a 4-to-1 odds against a guy "who could not fight his way out of a paper bag"? Does that mean I get 3-to-1 or less against the paper bag itself? In all seriousness, I think that I would win, because unless I'm armed, I'd be running in the opposite direction utilizing my considerable track & field experience (800 meter sprint anyone?). Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

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August 9, 2001, 07:29 PM	#2
Mort Senior Member Join Date: December 17, 1998 Posts: 479	"System" in the sense of a synthesis of arts which is taught systematically. Professor Vee was an amazing martial artist, and the art he taught was amazing. However, look at these guys and decide for yourself.

August 10, 2001, 02:42 PM	#3
btuff Junior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Posts: 2	They have some video clips on their website (www.veearnisjitsu.com). From what I've seen and heard you should consider yourself lucky to have a school nearby and check it out for youself.

August 12, 2001, 09:55 PM	#6
NightFighter Junior Member Join Date: August 1, 2001 Posts: 2	Skorzeny, just out of curiosity have you ever studied Ninjutsu or Taijutsu? The system I am referring to is not the fake Hollywood stuff that you see on movies but authentic armed and unarmed combat. Combat systems that have survived 1000 years, if you look at a lot of martial arts out there, they have very brief histories some not older than 70 years. Taijutsu has survived throughout the ages because of its effectiveness on the battlefield and in modern day situations. I realise there are a lot of glory seekers and money grabbers out there giving the true art a bad reputation and Hollywood certainly does that. But I am speaking from personal experience having used the art in real confrontations.

August 12, 2001, 11:26 PM	#7
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Nightfighter, Welcome to The Firing Line! Glad to have you. The arts you study are more correctly called kobudo, not ninjutsu. Of the nine Ryu, only 3 (IIRC) are, in fact, deemed ninjutsu lineages, with Togakure Ryu being the most famous. (Hatsumi is, of course, really making his own school as well, so that would make 10.) As has already been intimated, there is a lot of misunderstanding of what "ninjutsu" was. There are tactics in dedicated "Samurai" schools that were called ninjutsu as well (to encompass such items as night work, b&e, and small unit tactics). Many ideas about ninja derive from Japanese fiction and theater, including the black suit ("shinobi shozoku") . So, in summation, the arts you study are more just traditional Japanese battlefield arts. We in the US have actually seen very little of the "ninja" schools, even in the "x-kans" (Bujinkan, Jinenkan, Genbukan). You will give yourself more credence- and, in fact, be more correct- if you just drop mentioning ninja, ninjutsu, or (perhaps) even ninpo when you describe what you study. I must say I take some umbrage to even mentioning kobudo being taught to SMU's (Special Forces, Force Recon, SAS, etc). There are several reasons for this. For one thing, individuals members of Special Military Units can take whatever instruction they want, and the teacher who taught them can then claim to have taught Seals, or whatever. Big deal. Secondly, the very nature of these arts makes them unsuited for quick integration into a modern fighting unit's repertoire. Waiting for that sword strike from behind is not really something Joe Grunt, Snakeater Extraordinaire, really has time to train for. Folk like Skorzeny are, I believe, put off by two things. The most obvious is the poor quality of some senior American Bujinkan instructors. (I will admit I started training under Stephen Hayes. I was quite happy when my initial six months were up, and I could move on; I could already tell I wasn't getting "the real deal". Before I move on, let me say something nice about Steve: his wife is great- and very dangerous- and his kids, when I knew them, were absolutely super.) I have seen a Bujinkan "10th dan" (the same one who offers the black belt by video course) who could not fight his way out of a paper bag. It would be very amusing to pit Skorzeny against him; in unarmed combat, I'd give 4 to 1 odds on Skorzeny without hesitation. The second, and not quite so obvious problem some martial artists have, is the debatable history of the lineages that compose the curriculum. There is an easy way to handle this. (I'm quoting, here.) Shut up and train. You can tell when someone is genuinely dangerous, by how they move. If you're not with someone in person, you'll never know, regardless of how well they "talk the talk". Ninpo ikkan! John

August 12, 2001, 11:49 PM	#8
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	MK11, I would probably choose a system that's been around long enough to develop a reputation. I study, and believe in, traditional, very "old school" Japanese arts. Many of them are a total system, that can teach your body both armed and unarmed defense. The problem for many is, that these systems take a lot of time to integrate. If you are willing to devote a large amount of time, you may want to visit someplace like www.e-budo.com for a recommendation on kobudo in your area. (Some karate organizations bill themselves as kobudo, but this is in error.) If, like most Americans, you have a limited amount of time you want to devote, I would suggest something like FMA or Muay Thai for the striking arts, and (if you desire) BJJ or judo for grappling. FMA will also have the advantage of teaching you armed combat as well. Good luck!

August 13, 2001, 10:33 AM	#10
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Do itashima****e. Life is too weird to give you better odds. The ceiling could fall, or something!