.223 primer question

grumpa72 · April 27, 2010, 07:38 AM

I have been reloading some .223 loads for my Colt AR and want to rethink my primer use. I have read lots about folks using the CCI 400 Small Rifle primers but I see that there are also "41/5.56mm Military small rifle primer with NATO sensitivity" from their website.

The question is, having read that soft primers can cause slam fires in semi-autos, is the CCI #400 hard enough that I don't need to worry about that or is the #41 called for? I have a decently priced source available locally for the #400 but not the #41. I do want to use the right one though.

Opinions?

Thank you for your opinions. Btw, several of the recipes that I use do call for #400.

geetarman · April 27, 2010, 08:13 AM

delete

ScottRiqui · April 27, 2010, 09:18 AM

#400s are probably fine, as geetarman said, but the harder cup material in the #41 gives another benefit as well. If you reload crimped brass, the harder cup makes crimp removal not quite as critical.

When I first got my Dillon Super Swager, I was adjusting it and found that if I set it to completely remove *all traces* of the crimp from my Lake City brass, it would sometimes leave the face of the case not quite flat, causing the cases to stick in the shellholder.

I found that with the #41 primers, I could set the swager a little shallower to avoid deforming the case. It will sometimes leave a trace of the crimp behind, but the #41 primers still seat just fine. In fact, while experimenting I discovered that I could seat the #41 primers in a crimped case just fine without swaging away the crimp *at all*. I don't recommend that as a regular practice, but it's nice to just be able to lightly swage the case without having to worry about removing every trace of the crimp for fear of deforming the primers.

Also, the #41 primer uses magnum primer compound, so that may change your loads a little bit compared to the #400 small rifle primer.

CJ7365 · April 27, 2010, 11:19 AM

CCI 400 is what I have always used, over 2000+ rounds without a slam fire, I have been using LC & PMC brass.

As of right now I see no advantage of using the 41 primer, plus it adds additional cost.

As to not swaging or removing the military crimp, and then priming it, its just an accident waiting to happen, take the extra time remove the crimp and then reload the LC brass over and over again.

bullspotter · April 27, 2010, 11:30 AM

CCI 400 is all i have used for my 223 ar loads, havent had a slamfire yet, Pry around the 2500 round mark.

hagar · April 27, 2010, 11:32 AM

CCI #400 is fine, but stay away from winchester small rifle primers. Their large rifle primers are fine.

ScottRiqui · April 27, 2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

As to not swaging or removing the military crimp, and then priming it, its just an accident waiting to happen, take the extra time remove the crimp and then reload the LC brass over and over again.

Agreed. As I said, I don't recommend priming without dealing with the crimp. But with the Dillon Super Swager, if I remove all traces of the crimp, the cases often stick in the shellholder. With the #41 primers, I can leave a little trace of the crimp behind and not have to worry about deforming the primer. This might be true with the #400 primers as well - I haven't tried them.

grumpa72 · April 27, 2010, 11:58 AM

Good responses. Thank you all. Let me address some comments or questions.

1. I always remove the military crimp.
2. I always full length resize.
3. I swage and chamfer every case.
4. I had read that the CCI #400 was hard enough that I could use them but avoid Winchester primers.

Essentially this question was a re-verification of my reloading process. I did not blindly jump into rifle reloading but put 18 months behind me reloading 9mm and .45 acp to develop my skills and techniques. Then I read everything I could about rifle reloading and started on .223. I bought an M1 Garand a week ago and the surplus Greek 30.06 for that is 50 cents per round. So I am thinking about getting into that caliber which I also read takes the military grade CCI primers.

My biggest hurdle in deciding whether to reload for the M1 is the cost. Using my own scavenged brass, the cost of powder, bullets and primers has me at 35 cents per round and I don't know if it is worth my time to get involved in a fourth caliber. I haven't found cheap bullets and I cannot find surplus powder like some of the M1 reloaders are using.

The search continues.

Thanks for the help.

medalguy · April 27, 2010, 11:40 PM

Here's one more opinion to add. I reload 223 using Remington 7 1/2 primers, SR-BR and I can report they work very well. The BR primers seem to be a bit harder material than the standard SR primers. I have yet to have a slam-fire using these or any other primers. I shoot a lot of 223 and 308 in semi rifles.

Clark500 · April 28, 2010, 09:39 AM

I have never used anything but CCI 400's in my mini-14 and have never had a problem.

JD 500 · April 28, 2010, 12:05 PM

I was told to avoid Winchester primers, guess what I use.

I have never had an issue.

I absolutely get a little dimple in the primer just from loading a cartridge into the chamber, but I've never had one go off.

I think the issue is isolated to rifles where the firing pin does not have a spring holding it back. ( I know an AR-15 is one, but don't know if there are any other rifles with the same design)

hagar · April 28, 2010, 12:58 PM

On top of slamfiring readily, winchester small rifle primers also pierce easily and are about the worst primers you can use in a semi-auto. You only need one to ruin your day..:barf:

kraigwy · April 28, 2010, 01:07 PM

CCI 400s work in an AR with no problems, Personally I use CCI SR Bench Rest primes for my White Oak upper for high power shooting.

Lavid2002 · April 28, 2010, 01:55 PM

I had a slam fire when I was shooting a competition once. I got second by 12 points and that slam fire that launched one into the burm was responsible for 10 of those 12 points... Im happy I didnt blow up my gun. Come to fond out most of my primers in that batch were seated high.

Brian Pfleuger · April 28, 2010, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lavid2002

that slam fire that launched one into the burm was responsible for 10 of those 12 points...

Pretty sure that one was going to be a 10 are we?

just razzin'

RKG · April 28, 2010, 04:50 PM

As others, I have loaded and shot a gazillion 5.56 using ordinary CCI SR primers.

The concern about "slam fire" actually involves two issues.

One is whether the dimple that an AR firing pin will engrave on the primer upon locking up is sufficient to trigger the primer. In theory, this could happen with primers whose cups are soft enough. I use only CCI (and I use a lot of them) and have never had an issue.

The other concern has to do with high primers. Here the issue is that the bolt face is contacting the primer, not the case head, as the round is being chambered, and upon the round's abrupt stop, the primer is further seated with enough violence sometimes to set it off. Since this will happen before the bolt is completely locked, it is a far more serious concern and is sometimes called an "out of battery" discharge. I'm not personally aware of any high-primer OOBs with an AR, but a number have been recorded with M1s and M14s. The solution is to be sure your primers are seated to spec, which is on the order of 0.004" or so sub-flush.

jhansman · April 29, 2010, 04:24 PM

FWIW, I use the CCI #400s in my Saiga .223, and the Winnies in my bolt gun. I have a brick of the 41s, but have not used them yet. When I do, they go into rounds for the Saiga.

grumpa72 · April 29, 2010, 04:34 PM

Ok, your responses have removed any worries.

I just bought another 500 CCI #400 SR primers.

I appreciate all of the inputs

rude robert · May 10, 2010, 04:59 PM

I was reading about your primer questions and nothing came up about remingtons 6.5 primer. I just bought reloading stuff today and I am tumbling the brass now for it. thx robert

Bamashooter · May 10, 2010, 09:36 PM

no, do not use 6.5's it says so right on the box not for 223 and a couple others i cant remember.

grumpa72 · May 11, 2010, 07:46 AM

I have noted in our local GS that primers and powder are showing up with regularity. I just bought 500 more CCI #400s yesterday (I have 2500 now and can pick up 500 each time I pass their store) and the shelves are starting to fill up. I suspect that the other manufacturers have either increased their production or buyers aren't buing as much. I have no experience with Remington so I am sticking with the tried and true CCIs.

Grumpa

Ala Dan · May 11, 2010, 10:39 AM

I am going to use CCI #400's also, as I don't want too destroy my Colt CAR-15; or my brand new Rock River Arms LAR- Operator Elite 5.56~!

April 27, 2010, 07:38 AM	#1
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	.223 primer question I have been reloading some .223 loads for my Colt AR and want to rethink my primer use. I have read lots about folks using the CCI 400 Small Rifle primers but I see that there are also "41/5.56mm Military small rifle primer with NATO sensitivity" from their website. The question is, having read that soft primers can cause slam fires in semi-autos, is the CCI #400 hard enough that I don't need to worry about that or is the #41 called for? I have a decently priced source available locally for the #400 but not the #41. I do want to use the right one though. Opinions? Thank you for your opinions. Btw, several of the recipes that I use do call for #400.

April 27, 2010, 08:13 AM	#2
geetarman Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2009 Location: Arizona Posts: 3,157	delete Last edited by geetarman; April 28, 2010 at 05:15 PM.

April 27, 2010, 11:32 AM	#6
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 745	CCI #400 is fine, but stay away from winchester small rifle primers. Their large rifle primers are fine. __________________ I don't have time for busy people

April 28, 2010, 12:58 PM	#12
hagar Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2000 Location: Colombia, SC Posts: 745	On top of slamfiring readily, winchester small rifle primers also pierce easily and are about the worst primers you can use in a semi-auto. You only need one to ruin your day..:barf: __________________ I don't have time for busy people

April 28, 2010, 01:07 PM	#13
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	CCI 400s work in an AR with no problems, Personally I use CCI SR Bench Rest primes for my White Oak upper for high power shooting. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 27, 2010, 09:18 AM	#3
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	#400s are probably fine, as geetarman said, but the harder cup material in the #41 gives another benefit as well. If you reload crimped brass, the harder cup makes crimp removal not quite as critical. When I first got my Dillon Super Swager, I was adjusting it and found that if I set it to completely remove all traces of the crimp from my Lake City brass, it would sometimes leave the face of the case not quite flat, causing the cases to stick in the shellholder. I found that with the #41 primers, I could set the swager a little shallower to avoid deforming the case. It will sometimes leave a trace of the crimp behind, but the #41 primers still seat just fine. In fact, while experimenting I discovered that I could seat the #41 primers in a crimped case just fine without swaging away the crimp at all. I don't recommend that as a regular practice, but it's nice to just be able to lightly swage the case without having to worry about removing every trace of the crimp for fear of deforming the primers. Also, the #41 primer uses magnum primer compound, so that may change your loads a little bit compared to the #400 small rifle primer.

April 27, 2010, 11:19 AM	#4
CJ7365 Member Join Date: May 3, 2009 Posts: 42	CCI 400 is what I have always used, over 2000+ rounds without a slam fire, I have been using LC & PMC brass. As of right now I see no advantage of using the 41 primer, plus it adds additional cost. As to not swaging or removing the military crimp, and then priming it, its just an accident waiting to happen, take the extra time remove the crimp and then reload the LC brass over and over again. __________________ http://www.olskool4x4.com "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson

April 27, 2010, 11:30 AM	#5
bullspotter Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2008 Location: Montana Posts: 308	CCI 400 is all i have used for my 223 ar loads, havent had a slamfire yet, Pry around the 2500 round mark.

April 27, 2010, 11:58 AM	#8
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Good responses. Thank you all. Let me address some comments or questions. 1. I always remove the military crimp. 2. I always full length resize. 3. I swage and chamfer every case. 4. I had read that the CCI #400 was hard enough that I could use them but avoid Winchester primers. Essentially this question was a re-verification of my reloading process. I did not blindly jump into rifle reloading but put 18 months behind me reloading 9mm and .45 acp to develop my skills and techniques. Then I read everything I could about rifle reloading and started on .223. I bought an M1 Garand a week ago and the surplus Greek 30.06 for that is 50 cents per round. So I am thinking about getting into that caliber which I also read takes the military grade CCI primers. My biggest hurdle in deciding whether to reload for the M1 is the cost. Using my own scavenged brass, the cost of powder, bullets and primers has me at 35 cents per round and I don't know if it is worth my time to get involved in a fourth caliber. I haven't found cheap bullets and I cannot find surplus powder like some of the M1 reloaders are using. The search continues. Thanks for the help.

April 27, 2010, 11:40 PM	#9
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	Here's one more opinion to add. I reload 223 using Remington 7 1/2 primers, SR-BR and I can report they work very well. The BR primers seem to be a bit harder material than the standard SR primers. I have yet to have a slam-fire using these or any other primers. I shoot a lot of 223 and 308 in semi rifles.

April 28, 2010, 09:39 AM	#10
Clark500 Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2010 Posts: 168	I have never used anything but CCI 400's in my mini-14 and have never had a problem.

April 28, 2010, 12:05 PM	#11
JD 500 Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 110	I was told to avoid Winchester primers, guess what I use. I have never had an issue. I absolutely get a little dimple in the primer just from loading a cartridge into the chamber, but I've never had one go off. I think the issue is isolated to rifles where the firing pin does not have a spring holding it back. ( I know an AR-15 is one, but don't know if there are any other rifles with the same design)

April 28, 2010, 01:55 PM	#14
Lavid2002 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2007 Posts: 2,568	I had a slam fire when I was shooting a competition once. I got second by 12 points and that slam fire that launched one into the burm was responsible for 10 of those 12 points... Im happy I didnt blow up my gun. Come to fond out most of my primers in that batch were seated high. __________________ Math>Grammar

April 28, 2010, 04:50 PM	#16
RKG Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 562	As others, I have loaded and shot a gazillion 5.56 using ordinary CCI SR primers. The concern about "slam fire" actually involves two issues. One is whether the dimple that an AR firing pin will engrave on the primer upon locking up is sufficient to trigger the primer. In theory, this could happen with primers whose cups are soft enough. I use only CCI (and I use a lot of them) and have never had an issue. The other concern has to do with high primers. Here the issue is that the bolt face is contacting the primer, not the case head, as the round is being chambered, and upon the round's abrupt stop, the primer is further seated with enough violence sometimes to set it off. Since this will happen before the bolt is completely locked, it is a far more serious concern and is sometimes called an "out of battery" discharge. I'm not personally aware of any high-primer OOBs with an AR, but a number have been recorded with M1s and M14s. The solution is to be sure your primers are seated to spec, which is on the order of 0.004" or so sub-flush.

April 29, 2010, 04:24 PM	#17
jhansman Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2007 Posts: 680	FWIW, I use the CCI #400s in my Saiga .223, and the Winnies in my bolt gun. I have a brick of the 41s, but have not used them yet. When I do, they go into rounds for the Saiga. __________________ Blessed is the man who has nothing to say, and cannot be compelled to say it.

April 29, 2010, 04:34 PM	#18
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	Ok, your responses have removed any worries. I just bought another 500 CCI #400 SR primers. I appreciate all of the inputs

May 10, 2010, 04:59 PM	#19
rude robert Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2009 Posts: 116	Is the remington 6.5 primer good to go with the ar? I was reading about your primer questions and nothing came up about remingtons 6.5 primer. I just bought reloading stuff today and I am tumbling the brass now for it. thx robert

May 10, 2010, 09:36 PM	#20
Bamashooter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Posts: 1,860	no, do not use 6.5's it says so right on the box not for 223 and a couple others i cant remember.

May 11, 2010, 07:46 AM	#21
grumpa72 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2009 Posts: 487	I have noted in our local GS that primers and powder are showing up with regularity. I just bought 500 more CCI #400s yesterday (I have 2500 now and can pick up 500 each time I pass their store) and the shelves are starting to fill up. I suspect that the other manufacturers have either increased their production or buyers aren't buing as much. I have no experience with Remington so I am sticking with the tried and true CCIs. Grumpa

May 11, 2010, 10:39 AM	#22
Ala Dan Member in memoriam Join Date: August 13, 1999 Location: In The HOT, Humid, and Mu Posts: 6,116	I am going to use CCI #400's also, as I don't want too destroy my Colt CAR-15; or my brand new Rock River Arms LAR- Operator Elite 5.56~!