Reloading Books

[ustacood]

I have noticed that manuals tend to give much lower ranges for powder than most folks here seem to suggest. I know it's about your particular firearm and working up the load is important. Is it generally true I could go beyond the ranges of powder listed in my Speer manual? I've been struggling at finding accurate loads. I'm sure it's more about my technique. Should I be discarding my brass after so many reloads? I do find most measure to spec before reloading them. I'm just doing .38 special and .357 magnum. Thanks in advance for the replies.

[McShooty]

It seems to me the Speer manual tends to be conservative, but I would hesitate to exceed their maximum loads. For your .38 Special, you are probably loading for plinking and informal target shooting. Mild loads with wadcutter bullets usually work best. If you want more power with the .357, check some other manuals. The Hornady 8th Edn lists 1400 fps for their 140-gr XTP bullet and 18.4 gr of H-110. It is best to do quite a bit of shooting, so that you have confidence in your ability to judge performance and accuracy, before messing around with stout reloads. Cases generally last a long time. I never throw one away if it measures to specs and has no splits.

[Sierra280]

The most important thing is to watch for pressure signs!! I load for accuracy, not velocity, so usually stay below max. Keeping track of number of reloads for a given lot number of brass is a good idea, if they start to split or separate, toss the whole lot. I only reload for rifles, find this invaluable for keeping track of stuff like that: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/149051...6849188&sr=8-1

[steveno]

just because someone is suggesting a load that may be higher than a manual doesn't mean it is safe in their gun or yours as guns can be a lot difference and usually are. if you stay within the limits of the reloading manuals you should be good to go. case life is going to depend on what power level you want to have. I would expect the cases of light 38 special loads to last almost forever. the higher the pressure you use case life will probably be shorter

[Strafer Gott]

The Speer manuals have taken me everywhere I needed to go with accuracy and performance. The older editions have helped me find load data for some of the powders presently available that I was unfamiliar with. I guess the present adversity has encouraged me to broaden my horizons. Funny, I had never thought Unique was holding me back.

[Real Gun]

ustacood - I have noticed that manuals tend to give much lower ranges for powder than most folks here seem to suggest.

You might be right, but what I have seen is higher loads for lead bullets, since all the manuals except Lyman assume lead of any alloy, or perhaps the softest, cannot go faster than 1100 fps without leading a barrel. Beyond that, bullet casters or wad cutter lovers are on their own.

[Nick_C_S]

Almost all my loadings are per the Speer #14 manual, or the Sierra #5. The Sierra #5 tends to be more conservative than Speer (but not always). I have yet to run into a situation where I feel a need to exceed the manual's listings (now that I'm older and wiser).

The only time I'm "outside manual" is when I'm using a bullet that bears no resemblance to what's in the manual. 148g DEWC being an example. 105g TCFP being another. Both of these bullets (.358) are for target and/or IDPA and don't need to be loaded hot. So it's a moot point in their cases.

I'd stick with the manuals.

[ustacood]

So could I use the same recipe for say a 158 gr. XTP as 158 gr. hard cast lead?

[steveno]

if you have a load for the jacketed bullet it would probably safe with the lead bullet because of less friction. if you have a load for the lead bullet you might have to back it off a little bit because of the increased friction of the jacketed bullet

[Nick_C_S]

What steveno said is correct. From a pressure standpoint, you'd likely be just fine.

But there is also the issue of leading. Loading a 158g Lead SWC to the full power level of a 158g Jacketed HP will almost certainly result in a round that deposits copious quantities of lead in your barrel.

[Nick_C_S]

My hottest .357 Mag hard cast 158g Lead SWC round is 7.6g of HS-6. It chronographs at 963 fps through a 686 3"; and 1036 fps through a 686 4". After 60 rounds, this recipe leaves enough lead behind to where it's time to stop shooting and start cleaning.

Speer #14 has the max load for a 158 JHP at 9.7g of HS-6. There's no way I'd load a LSWC that hot. The slug would probably leave the barrel in a liquid state lol.

[Boomer58cal]

I load for accuracy! And to save money!

For those reasons I rarely load near max. In fact the only thing I load near max is my 7mm mag as the group's just kept getting tighter as I approached max. It took about a hundred rounds to work this load up. I could have done it with less rounds but better safe than sorry. Remember its not safety first its safety always.

My manuals showed a wide variance in their max load for my 7mm mag. With a 139-140g bullet my manuals veried from a max of 60 to 66 grains of IMR-4350. Once I got above 60 grains I was very careful.

Any load you get from someone online should not only be checked but double checked or triple checked. The guy doesn't have to be a 12 year old keyboard jockey or an idiot to give you an unsafe load. There is always the possibility of typos.

Boomer

[Airman Basic]

I know this ain't the castboolit group, but if you tailor your alloy, lube and bullet diameter to your particular firearm, you can load up to magnum handgun velocities. I regularly run above 1200 fps with 357, 41, and 44 with no leading problems.

[Real Gun]

Nick_C_S - My hottest .357 Mag hard cast 158g Lead SWC round is 7.6g of HS-6. It chronographs at 963 fps through a 686 3"; and 1036 fps through a 686 4". After 60 rounds, this recipe leaves enough lead behind to where it's time to stop shooting and start cleaning.

Speer #14 has the max load for a 158 JHP at 9.7g of HS-6. There's no way I'd load a LSWC that hot. The slug would probably leave the barrel in a liquid state lol.

HS-6 in a .357 load should probably use a magnum primer. At "only" 963 fps in .357 magnum, using hard cast bullets, leading may be caused by a lack of sufficient pressure to get enough bullet obturation (assuming the shape of the barrel's interior) to seal the barrel. Something's not right at those velocities.

[rclark]

Something's not right at those velocities.

+1 . I've shoot lead up to 1333fps with no leading problems and down to around 600fps as well.

[Nick_C_S]

Real Gun: I always use CCI 550 magnum primers with HS-6. It's good powder but it tends to be dirty and needs to be thoroughly ignited.

When I say "it's time to stop shooting and start cleaning," I'm talking about minimal leading. But you're right: It's a hard cast slug (BHN 18) and could be leading due to a lack of obturation.

I haven't spent a lot of time tweaking this recipe. In fact, I'll most likely nix it entirely and go back to the drawing board, using AA5 for my "medium power" .357 Lead SWC recipe.

I've been loading for 29 years, but historically haven't had much need to load a lot of lead. Times have changed. Prices have gone up and availability has gone down for jacketed bullets. Plus, I'm shooting now more than ever. All factors combined, I am only now in a situation where I need to load lead in large quantities. So I got some learnin' to do (one is never too old to learn).

But we digress.

ustacood's original post was about load manuals and "struggling at finding accurate loads".

I really don't want to come off as smug, but I honestly can't say I have ever loaded an "inaccurate" round. I think, with modern, high-quality guns, the bullet is pretty much going to go where you point it, regardless of its loading (for all practical purposes). I have never missed my target and assumed anything other than my inability to properly point the gun at the target. So searching around for loadings outside the manuals due to accuracy problems may be a search in vain.

Getting to the brass: I have never trimmed my 38 brass; maybe I should, I suppose. But they have always crimped (where length inconsistencies will manifest) consistently enough for accuracy. 38 brass is durable and can take a lot of reloading. A lot. I mean, a lot. I have brass from 1983 that is still going strong.

.357 brass is a different story. It flexes and stretches under the pressure. In fact, I just finished trimming my current rotation stock to 1.28. Some of them exceeded 1.30 prior to trimming (1.29 is max spec).

Because I now shoot competitively in IDPA, I load a lot of wadcutters that seem to be highly accurate. I don't load Hollow-Base wadcutters (HBLWC) because they don't protrude above the case neck, and the case neck hangs up when speed-loading. The Double-Ended wadcutters (DEWC) protrude above the case neck, have a little bevel to them; just enough bevel to speed-load with decent ease (there's better bullet profiles for speed-loading, I know. But wadcutters deliver the biggest target hole for maximum score potential).

I have two loadings for .38 148g DEWC:

The first is 4.2g Winchester 231. I use a hard cast BHN 18; and it chronos at 956 fps in my S&W 686 4" IDPA shooter. This is hotter than a typical pure target round - by design. In fact, I'll probably make this round a little more spunky with future loadings (4.7g).

My second recipe is my true target load: 3.2g Bullseye. For this load, I use a BNH 10 slug. It's nice and soft and well suited for the load. I shoot this in IDPA. (I haven't chrono'd it yet, but I'm sure it exceeds 710 fps - which would meet the IDPA power floor requirement.)

Both of these loads are highly accurate as far as I can determine. And ironically enough, can not be found in any load manual that I can find (because no major bullet manufacturer makes DEWC's).

[mikld]

I have noticed that manuals tend to give much lower ranges for powder than most folks here seem to suggest

A wise reloader will pay very little attention to any load data from any forum "expert", range rat, or gun shop guru. While they may just be trying to be "helpful" to a brother reloader, don't use anyone's load data that can't be double checked against a loading manual.

Reloading manual's data will differ from Author to author, manufacturer to manufacturer, because all the data was not done at the same time, with the exact same components and with the same equipment. I really don't believe the "lawyered down" theory of why loads might be lower in newer manuals, just better testing and more accurate pressure testing (CUP vs. PSI).

Is it generally true I could go beyond the ranges of powder listed in my Speer manual?

I wouldn't suggest it. If you have a chronograph, some precision measuring equipment and a lot of experience studying/inspecting fired brass, mebbe.

As for your 38/357 brass, reload them until the case mouths split (inspecting every case before starting the process is essential). I have been reloading .38 and .357 for over 30 years and might have some left from the very beginning (mebbe) and if I run across some really old stuff, I just inspect and reload...

[Nick_C_S]

I agree with mikld. Any load info you read in the forums is for your consumption only to get a feel for what other people are doing (even MY load data lol).

Use good judgement and create loads that work for you - it's part of the fun of reloading.

Never create a load solely based on what "some guy on the internet" is doing.

[ustacood]

Thanks for all the helpful responses. I really appreciate it.

[Real Gun]

Nick_C_S - I always use CCI 550 magnum primers with HS-6. It's good powder but it tends to be dirty and needs to be thoroughly ignited.

It would be an interesting topic on its own to discuss what is a "dirty" powder. I think they are all okay as long as they are part of the right recipe and well suited to the application. With so much emphasis placed on mild loads, especially for competition, that tends to become the frame of reference instead of what guns are really supposed to do.

[Nick_C_S]

Absolutely Real Gun. Quite well stated. My calling HS-6 a "dirty" powder is not really fair. I made the statement in the context of brevity for the forum string.

It has been my experience that HS-6 doesn't burn clean until you move up near the top of the scale for the given load. In general, most powders don't like to be loaded "right" - as you have stated. Some powders you can get away with loading light more than others. HS-6 is definitely not one of them. That's also why I mentioned that I'm probably going to nix the mentioned load and start over using AA5 (or even AA2).

A real good example of HS-6 being "dirty" is my 44 Special round. 240g LSWC w/ 7.5g HS-6. It's terrible. It leaves the spent brass with large quantities of semi-burned powder inside them - looks kind of like sand. And there's a lot of it. Back to the drawing board with that one too.

HS-6 is great powder when loaded in its proper performance window. I have a number of .45 ACP loads that use HS-6 and they are very clean burning - without magnum primers.

Like you said, it really is about loading the right recipe for the powder/bullet/application.

[Clark]

An expert reloader can make up his own loads and get peak performance with unknown cartridges, unknown powder and unknown bullets.

A beginning or slow to learn reloader should do it per written procedures.

Some can pioneer new mountain climbing routes, while others should stick to stairs that meet the building code.

[Lost Sheep]

Originally Posted by ustacood

Reloading Books
I have noticed that manuals tend to give much lower ranges for powder than most folks here seem to suggest. I know it's about your particular firearm and working up the load is important. Is it generally true I could go beyond the ranges of powder listed in my Speer manual? I've been struggling at finding accurate loads. I'm sure it's more about my technique. Should I be discarding my brass after so many reloads? I do find most measure to spec before reloading them. I'm just doing .38 special and .357 magnum. Thanks in advance for the replies.
ustacood is offline Report Post

Welcome to the forum and thanks for asking our advice.

Current manuals give lower loads than older manuals . People who have been reloading for a few decades started out with those older manuals (when they were new). That is a reasonable explanation of why their quotes are higher than current manuals, and a good reason why anyone should check multiple authoritative sources (not casual sources) to double-check.

Why do current manuals give lower loads? One assumption might be that current powders are more powerful, but I think that unlikely (though possible). What I do have on good authority is that pressure measuring systems have improved and with greater accuracy/sensitivity, some safety margins that may have been exceeded unknowingly in the past are now less compromised.

Discard your brass after it shows signs of wear or failure. There are many ways of determining this from measuring the case head diameter, feeling for small cracks in the case mouths (with your finger), feeling inside the case (with a feeler wire) for case wall thinning, etc. That last one is more for bottlenecked cases.

Lost Sheep