Muzzleloading semi-auto/full auto concepts.

[Bill Akins]

I can't remember if I've mentioned my idea here before of using the Webley Fosbery Zig zag cylinder (only straightened out) concept regarding my idea of a semi-auto or even full auto muzzleloader. If I already have gone into that detail previously, forgive me for being redundant, but if not, here it is.

Study these pics I've collected regarding harmonica guns....

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/564193113IzsjJo

Most especially study this harmonica rifle built for Sam Houston....



and also study this harmonica rifle at this link....

http://underhammers.blogspot.com/200...derhammer.html

In studying these harmonica guns, I've come to several conclusions. The rectangular harmonica block holding either cartridges or black powder loads would inject bits of shaved lead and or burnt powder into your flesh that was immediately below the barrel to harmonica block gap. But....if one were to make the harmonica block where it inserted the end of the cartridge case into the chamber which would make a tight seal when the case expanded, (like the Nagant revolver) this would not happen. Also, if one wanted to make a primitive ignition cap and ball black powder version harmonica block, to preclude what is normally known as barrel to cylinder gap lead and powder "spitting", they could make ends on each harmonica block hole that would go into the chamber area much like a Russian Nagant revolver so that it sealed better and precluded "spitting" lead and powder at the gap.

Another idea I thought about was this design could be applied to make a semi auto or even fully automatic weapon that was not a firearm under the NFA due to it using a non cartridge primitive ignition system/black powder muzzleloader, which under the NFA is not only not a machine gun or even a semi auto, but as a primitive ignition system is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. Here's how.....

Most of us are familiar with the Webley Fosbery semi automatic revolver and its zig zag pattern cylinder turning design. Here's a pic of that....



and a link to how it worked.....
http://www.cruffler.com/historic-january01.html

Basically the Webley Fosbery semi auto revolver's zig zag cylinder turned halfway to the next round when the cylinder and upper receiver recoiled after firing, (engaging the zig zag pattern in a stationary lug), then when the spring pushed it back forward, it turned the cylinder the other half of the way which indexed it completely to the next round to be fired. Yes, a semi auto revolver.

Now imagine a black powder, muzzleloading cap and ball primitive ignition system harmonica block that had zig zag patterns in it that would also engage a stationary lug. But instead of the harmonica block turning like the Webley Fosbery's cylinder did, instead this harmonica block recoils rearward and compresses a spring and then the spring pushes the harmonica block back forward again all while a stationary lug engages the zig zag pattern in the harmonica block which causes the harmonica block to index to the next chamber on the harmonica block. Kind of like just straightening out the Webley Fosbery cylinder into a straight line instead of a cylinder but still utilizing those zig zag cuts with a stationary lug that engages them. Like in this pic of zig zag pattern cylinders laid out flat.....



The above pic of the straightened out zig zag cylinders married to the harmonica gun is what gave me my idea. This could be a semi auto or fully auto black powder gun. By using pyrodex pellets it would not gum up nor make smoke.

It could be a legal, non required to be registered, cap and ball, primitive ignition system machine gun, that would not be classified as such or even classified as a firearm under the NFA.

The hammer that fired the percussion caps on the harmonica block could have a small cup shaped area on the hammer that would totally cover the percussion cap nipple. The nipple would have a larger than normal hole which would be under the percussion cap. When the round fired, more force than normal would blow the percussion cap off the nipple. In addition to the recoiling of the harmonica block, the extra force applied against the hammer due to the larger nipple hole, would also help the recoiling harmonica block to cock the hammer for you. The spent percussion cap would be deflected away from the hammer by an incline & cutout built into the hammer "cup" which would expel the spent percussion cap much like some black powder recoil plates do already upon cocking after firing. Look at the recoil plate of your black powder revolver in the area immediately behind the cap nipples. Notice the channel made to direct the percussion cap away and outside of the gun after firing?

Now to make this black powder, primitive ignition system, harmonica gun which is a NON firearm, not a semi auto and not a full auto (under the NFA) not "spit" lead or powder into your hand underneath any harmonica block to barrel breech gap, you could do this. Make the forward end of each muzzleloading harmonica block chamber have a short protrusion on the end of each cylinder in the block that actually went up inside the barrel's breech end, much like the Russian Nagant revolver I mentioned earlier. Your spring pushing the harmonica block forward would keep the harmonica block short protrusion pushed tightly against a lip inside the breech end of the barrel, thus sealing the harmonica's block and the barrel from lead and powder "spitting". You would have a partially gas operated hammer but a simple blowback harmonica block "bolt".

Yes you could also make the hammer cock just by the harmonica block recoiling, and not increase the size of the hole in your percussion cap nipples. That would work too. But I was just thinking of a way to get rid of any percussion caps that might stick to the nipples on the harmonica block so it would be quicker to reload. If you omitted the spent caps being blown off and omitted the larger nipple hole and omitted the hammer cap "cup", then you would just have a blowback gun without any gas operation. With the low pressure of black powder guns, a blowback design would be no problem.

To my knowledge no one has ever utilized the Browning black powder harmonica gun, married to a harmonica block that reciprocated back and forth using the Webley Fosbery zig zag cuts to index it to the next cylinder hole in the harmonica block along with using an increased diameter percussion cap nipple holes and a hammer percussion cap/gas cup to cock the hammer and thus using all these make a semi auto or even full auto black powder, primitive ignition, non firearm, non required to be registered, machine gun that is not legally a firearm and thus not required to be registered.

But it could be done and with a harmonica block that held say 50 to 100 black powder chambers, and utilizing pyrodex pellets to preclude gumming up and smoke, and also the pyrodex pellets would greatly decrease time reloading the chambers of the harmonica block, I see no reason why this could not be done.

I picture it as a tripod mounted gun that would sort of resemble a tray fed Hotchkiss a little.

Some might ask WHY? I say why not? It would be fun and a rapid fire gun for range plinking that was not even required to be classified under the NFA as semi auto or full auto, it is not even classified as a firearm under the NFA. If it is not classified as a firearm, it cannot be a semi auto firearm nor a machine gun firearm. As a muzzleloader it is exempted from the NFA.

However, state law can be more restrictive than Federal law. So best to check them to see what they say about a muzzleloading "machinegun" before attempting to build one in your state..

I've thought about making one like I described for a long time. Just for the fun of doing it and making it work. I believe the theory of this is possible to be done. I know exactly how it needs to be designed and have a lathe and mill and some other tools, but would love to work with someone who has better grade machine tooling to make these.

Wouldn't this make a neat range toy? Thoughts?



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[Hawg]

Somebody has way, way too much time on his hands.

[Bill Akins]

Same could be said of anyone designing anything Hawg .

I'm always intrigued by ideas for things that could be made but never have been. And to my knowledge and research, this concept has never been done for a black powder muzzleloading weapon because at back then, all they had to work with was black powder that gummed up the works quickly. That isn't a concern today with non gumming, even non smoking black powder substitutes.

Is it archaic and obsolete compared to cartridge machine guns? Sure. But then again that's the fun of it It also has the advantage of legally NOT being a firearm. The same reasons we enjoy muzzleloaders to being with.

C'mon now Hawg, tell me you wouldn't enjoy seeing or shooting something like that.


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[Bill Akins]

Here's a design concept I left out in my previous post.

The chief factor in this design working would be the combination of blowback and recoil exerted upon the zig zag harmonica block. Which would of course be affected by the weight of the harmonica block. In order to have the entire harmonica block be able to recoil rearward and compress the mainspring, the blowback and recoil forces have to overcome the weight of the harmonica block and also the tension of the recoil spring. And the recoil spring also needs to be strong enough to adequately tightly hold each chamber which has a cone shaped protrusion which inserts into the barrel breech like a Nagant revolver for a better gas seal. So to decrease that say 50 or 100 rd harmonica block weight for the blowback/recoil to move it rearward far enough to engage the zig zag lug adequately, one way to do that would be to use an aluminum harmonica block that had screw in steel sleeves for the chambers. That would dramatically decrease the weight.

I envision a receiver that looks somewhat like a stretched out 1858 Remington receiver. With enough receiver length so that the harmonica block can recoil rearward far enough to the end of one section of the zig zag lugs, compressing a recoil spring, and then go back forward again following the other section of the zig zag lug so that the next chamber is indexed to the barrel's breech. I see a lug that engages the zig zag cuts that somewhat resembles the bolt for a standard revolver's cylinder. (Can you see this in your mind's eye?) Once the harmonica block was inserted into the receiver, the lug would be moved up and locked into position to engage the zig zag cuts on the harmonica block.

The zig zag cuts on the harmonica block would act due to friction as a delayed blowback, much the same as in the lugs on the barrel that delay blowback on the 1912 Steyr hahn pistol. Or...if experimentation proved that delayed blowback was unnecessary, you could slick things up and decrease wear on the lug by putting a roller on the top and one side of the lug where it went up into and engaged the zig zag slots.

Observing the gas seal of the Nagant revolver, the steel chambers that screw into the harmonica block, would have cone shaped ends that went up into the breech of the barrel to preclude spitting lead and powder into your hands. Held tightly against the barrel breech by the mainspring pressure.

With modern black powder substitutes, there wouldn't be the concern of gumming up that would happen using standard black powder....but you could use black powder if you wanted realizing it would gum up sooner.

I also envision a ornate Victorian looking "curlycue" cantilever support with a flat top horizontal surface that would support the harmonica block on both sides of the gun, both as it fed inward and came out the other side. Taking any stress off of the receiver so it doesn't have to support the weight of the harmonica block.

I am convinced this is a mechanically possible concept. They were sooooo close with the harmonica guns to this in the old days, but they obviously didn't do it because of the gumming up qualities of standard black powder. Today we have black powder substitutes that don't gum up and if you want don't smoke either, and I believe that fact makes this a viable concept.




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[swopjan]

reminds me of a movie i saw once where the main character would load six rounds into the harmonica and a cigar in the last chamber to smoke after the bad guys. total badass

you should make up a prototype and give us a range report

[T. O'Heir]

BP semi-autos didn't and don't work well because of fouling. The Webley Fosbery cartridge didn't use BP. Not enough pressure generated with BP either.

[Bill Akins]

I previously mentioned earlier, modern black powder substitutes such as pyrodex among others don't cause fouling and a gumming up like standard black powder does. Just because the Webley Fosbery didn't use black powder, doesn't mean the concepts of the zig zag slots can't be utilized. I believe the pressure generated would be dependent upon the charge volume of the chambers. As a much larger but still pertinent example, ever see the recoil of a black powder cannon? And remember, the harmonica block would be aluminum with steel chamber sleeves decreasing the weight dramatically so it would be easier for the harmonica block to recoil due to less weight.


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[Hawg]

http://www.floridareenactorsonline.com/machinegun.htm

[Bill Akins]

Thanks for that link Hawg. I am familiar with all those civil war rapid firing guns.
Here's a few more.

Here's a few muzzle loading black powder rapid fire guns that predated the civil war.
The Puckle gun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Puckle

also here......
http://www.wedmore.org.uk/puckle/James.htm

Next is the Ezra Ripley gun pre-dated the Gatling gun, but which no doubt Gatling took some of Ripley's design of this gun and incorporated it into his own Gatling gun. The Ripley gun looks very much like a Gatling with the Ripley barrels positioned around a central axis and as the barrels turn via a crank, a cam at the back of the gun raises up a striker to hit the percussion cap on the nipple firing the gun.But the Ripley didn't use cartridges and thus after it was fired once, it had to be slowly reloaded as a muzzleloader. But while it WAS firing it was firing rapidly like a later Gatling. The problem with the Ripley gun was there was no way to quickly reload it. Gatling fixed that.

Here's a link to the Ripley gun.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripley_machine_gun


But my concept are like none of them. Mine would have a aluminum harmonica with steel chamber inserts that automatically advanced the next chamber to the barrel due to zig zag slots engaging a stationary lug. Cone shaped protrusions on the ends of the steel chambers, would fit up into the breech of the barrel forming an if not exactly perfect, at least a reasonably rudimentary gas seal precluding the familiar burndt powder spitting lead so commonly found exploding from between the barrel to cylinder gap in revolvers. Those cone shaped chamber ends going into the breech would solve that problem just like it did for the Nagant revolver. My concept would be much simpler than any of those other early black powder rapid fire guns. It would also weigh much less. If overheating the barrel became a problem, a water jacket similar to the one on the Gardner gun could be utilized. Basically my idea would be a very rapidly firing muzzle loading harmonica gun capable of being either semi-auto or full auto.


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[Hawg]

Go for it.

[Chris_B]

Completely needless innovation for an obsolete weapon?

All of these things make me say : give it your all! I'd love to see it

[Bill Akins]

Chris B wrote:
Completely needless innovation for an obsolete weapon?
All of these things make me say : give it your all! I'd love to see it

You grasp it exactly Chris .
But my conceptualizing of a viable concept is one thing. Having the time to make it is another. I've got several other projects in the works that take priority over it right now. Perhaps later on though. If I ever build a black powder weapon from scratch, this would be the one. And it would be a hoot just for fun.

Actually a proof of concept smaller version could be built without using the harmonica block using a welded and stretched out '58 Remy receiver for a long enough receiver for the cylinder to move back and forth within, utilizing a zig zag slotted muzzleloading cylinder and recoil spring, with the bolt modified by cutting its legs off so that it permanently tensioned upward but could be pushed down on inserting the cylinder then the bolt lug would pop into the zig zag slots. The face of the hammer would have to be elongated to reach the more forward nipples but except for cutting off the bolt legs, and omitting the cylinder pawl, the rest of the trigger to hammer lockwork could remain the same. A recoil/blowback operated semi-auto muzzleloading revolver. What a hoot.

(Correction post....post Lol. I made a mistake. The above paragraph describes a full auto muzzleloading revolver that may not work because of hammer follow against the cylinder as it goes forward. One other addition to the lockwork would have to be done in order for it to be semi-auto and for that matter full auto as well. If I left it as I described in the paragraph above, as you held the trigger the hammer would not catch and would follow the cylinder forward. Possibly not having enough inertia to pop the cap, or if it did, it would go full auto.....maybe.

In order to have it be semi-auto a disconnector would have to be built in to catch the hammer until you released the trigger. Not a problem. A slot milled in the bottom of the frame would house a piece that as the cylinder went forward into battery, it would cause the hammer to catch and not be released until you released the trigger and then functioned it again. Now if you wanted it to be full auto, it might perhaps need the disconnector too. So that instead of the hammer following the cylinder forward and maybe not having enough inertia to pop the cap, the hammer was held back until the cylinder was fully forward pressing against and causing the disconnector to trip allowing the hammer to fall. So either as a semi-auto, or as a full auto muzzleloader, a disconnector would probably be necessary as I rethink my design.)

Then instead of the upper receiver recoiling back with the cylinder like on the original Webley Fosbery, just the cylinder would recoil/blowback compressing a recoil spring within a longer receiver. Of course that would only be a proof of concept for a revolver version, not the harmonica block version which doubtless would require larger volume chambers for enough power to recoil back the heavier aluminum with steel chamber sleeves harmonica block.

Make a heck of a "Steampunk" Jules Vernian type weapon. Now if only Tredegar iron works had thought of that back in the day things might have turned out differently . But then they didn't have non fouling pyrodex.


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[Hawg]

But then they didn't have non fouling pyrodex.

Non fouling huh? Never shot any have you?

[Bill Akins]

Sure I've shot pyrodex Hawg. I meant it is non fouling compared to regular black powder. Heck, even smokeless is fouling if you shoot enough of it. It's a degree of fouling comparison thing. But you know that. Pull'in my chain again ain't ya?



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[Hawg]

Pull'in my chain again ain't ya?

At least I ain't jerkin your.....N/M.

[Bill Akins]

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[BitterTait]

It's not a question of "is it possible?"
It's not a question of "should I do it?"

The only question is should the words you use before you first fire off a burst (and possibly the last words you utter before you die in a spectacular explosion) be "Hey Yall, watch this!" or "For Science!"

[Stephanie B]

Almost English in concept: A fascinating idea with no practical application.

I say: Go for it.

[Bill Akins]

Stephanie B wrote
Almost English in concept: A fascinating idea with no practical application.

I say: Go for it.

I see you understand it too Stephanie B.

And you just gave an excellent definition of "Steampunk".

"Almost English in concept" (Victorian Jules Vernian style "Steampunk" is HUGE in England and may have originated there, perhaps as an offshoot of the "Doctor Who" series type of genre).

And...."A fascinating idea with no practical application."

Exactly....except for pure fun. The best definition of "Steampunk" I've ever heard. You nailed it Stephanie. You also defined archaic, Victorian muzzleloading shooting in general in our technologically advanced weapons time we live in. With more advanced weapons available to us....muzzleloading shooting is (arguably) just for pure fun too.

I'm not what you would classify as a "Steampunker" at all. I've read a bit about it and find some of the Victorian/Vernian things built by Steampunk fans to be very inventive and imaginative (but usually fake, inoperative and strictly for looks). I didn't intend for my ideas in this thread to be "Steampunk"....but they no doubt fall into that category.

But it MIGHT have had a practical application say in 1863 in a parallel world, slightly timeline deviating, earth. .

Now where is that time traveling Tardis phone booth and what was the exact longitude, latitude, and time dimensional coordinates of Tredegar Iron works front office? But I gotta take fellow TFL member Doc Hoy with me. Because after all......he is......"The Doctor".




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[Bill Akins]

Forget the fact that this uses a pinfire cartridge and imagine it as having nipples and is a percussion cap fired muzzleloader, not a single hand held weapon like pictured, but bigger and tripod mounted for stability and is either a semi-auto or full auto muzzleloader or perhaps even select fire. Kinda looks like the granddaddy to the tray fed Hotchkiss.

Can you see the possibilities?














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[Bill Akins]

Here's a similar concept MODERN five & six shot chamber, muzzleloading harmonica pistol that was made in the Czech republic. Similar to my idea, but not semi-auto nor full auto. Still a muzzleloading modern harmonica pistol though with interesting features. Hard to find much about it online though.
My understanding is that these were made in the Czech Republic for shooters in England because of their draconian English gun laws. Check the articles and videos out. Pretty easy loading with his off the gun press.



(Scroll down for the videos at this article. Videos could use improving though, but adequate for us to evaluate.)
http://www.glossover.co.uk/blog/?p=426

Not much at this article, mostly about the projectile it fires, but then it's hard to find out much online about this harmonica pistol.
http://www.westernshootingsupplies.com/page37.htm

After watching those videos of the muzzleloading pistol firing and having to have the "bolt" handle MANUALLY recocked after each shot,....now imagine that the block had zig zag slots in it which along with the stationary bolt riding the slots of the zig zag slots, indexing it to the next chamber as it recoiled to the rear, compressed a spring, cocked the hammer, then the harmonica block went back forward again ready for the next shot as a semi-auto...or even as a full auto muzzleloader. Then make it much larger, tripod mounted with a 100 round harmonica bar.....with an assistant at the ready to insert another harmonica bar as soon as the other bar was ejected.

It's never been done before and that's what intrigues me about it so. I've been thinking about my design for this for years. A semi-auto/full auto, machinegun that isn't a firearm nor a machine under Federal law. Could be mailed to your doorstep, no regs or papers to fill out. Much less weight, easier and cheaper to build than a Gatling or Gardner gun. But could have comparable firepower. If the barrel gets too hot, stick a pretty brass waterjacket on it like the Gardner gun. Can you visualize it?

Marketability for my design concepts in this thread? Who knows, because it would no doubt have a very small niche market in the muzzleloading community. Almost not worth the effort for a demographic that small. But I'd love to make several for myself. Just for fun. Then if others wanted me to build them some few on a small basis, I'd entertain that idea. But I've got other projects going on right now and don't think I have time for building this one. Still, if someone could work with me making some CAD renditions and plans machine shop ready, I might consider it. Right now it's all in my head.

Anyone here have a CAD program and who knows how to use it? Love to work with someone like that so we could CAD the design up and animate it as if it was firing. Anyone here with a CAD program interesting in doing some work with me on it? Send me a PM.





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[kozak6]

The whole gas seal thing seems complicated and unnecessary if it's going to be fired from a tripod. If you just put some spade grips on it, all of your body parts would be out of the way and it would save a ton of machine time.

Does the harmonica really need to feed horizontally? If it moved vertically, gravity would help, although you'd need Bren style offset sights.

I've had some similar thoughts about an automatic harmonica gun. What I've been thinking about is a scaled down version using bb's and those plastic strips of 209 primers.

[Hawg]

Why not make it belt fed?

[Rifleman1776]

I did not, and don't plan to, read all of your very lengthy posts.
You are in the wrong forum. Those are not muzzle loaders. They are old and have a resemblence to some muzzle loaders but for the most part the guns like the 'harmoicas' are breech loaders. Just using black powder does not make them muzzle loaders.
If the concept was feasible they would have caught on and been used extensively. Bad concept, no working life except as history's curiosities.
There is also a CW era bolt action muzzle loader. I held one. It really was a muzzle loader but also just impractical for bp.

[noelf2]

You are in the wrong forum. Those are not muzzle loaders.

I think he's in the right forum for Black Powder guns whether it's breech or muzzle loading. I find the thread interesting, even if not practical. That's exactly what brings me to this forum because, IMO, no black powder muzzle or breech loading gun is practical when compared with modern technology, but they all interest me.