Turning a 9mm 1911 to at 38 super

[Jim Watson]

.38 Auto started out about like .38 Super but that was hard on the "parallel ruler" guns, so they cut the load. A 1920 source said a 130 at 1175. Wiki says the 130 at 1050 is based on the 4.5" barrel of the Pocket Model vs the 6" Sporting and Military models.

[44 AMP]

Personally, I wouldn't get too hung up on the reported velocities. The only velocity that matters is what the gun and ammo in your hands does.

I have seen guns with the same barrel length, shooting the same ammunition vary by as much as 100fps, though half that, or less is more common, it can happen.

What they got with what they shot is probably close to what you'll get, but its not guaranteed.

[74A95]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

In 1900, Browning introduced the .38 auto (.38 ACP), firing a 130gr bullet at a listed 1040fps.

In 1929 a high pressure version of the .38ACP was created to run in the Colt Govt Model pistol. This round became known as the .38 Super, and fired a 130gr bullet at a listed 1275fps.

Some of those numbers/dates don't add up.

Here's a link with the history of the 38 Super cartridge;

https://web.archive.org/web/20170716...s/History.html

Notable details:

The first specification for the 38 Auto in 1900 was a bullet raveling 1260 fps from a 6" barrel according to Douglas Sheldon (1997).

The 38 Super cartridge was not created in 1929. The Super 38 Pistol was created in 1929 and was chambered for 38 Automatic. The velocity of the 38 Auto was reported as 1190-1200 fps.

It was not until around 1933 that the 38 Auto got a speed boost and that upped it to 1300 fps.


Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN.

[Miami_JBT]

Tisas is importing a Government Model and a Commander Model that comes with both a 9mm and .38 Super barrel.

https://tisasusa.com/tisas-1911-a1-desperado-9/38/

https://tisasusa.com/tisas-1911-a1-regulator-9/38/

MSRP is $799.

[wild cat mccane]

Thanks RC. That was super helpful.

Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?

Also, just ammoseeking 38 Super. It's amazing how much of the commercial options are +P

[74A95]

Originally Posted by wild cat mccane

Also, just ammoseeking 38 Super. It's amazing how much of the commercial options are +P

All 38 Super ammo is labeled +P. "+P" was added to the 38 Super name in 1974 by the industry to distinguish it from the 38 Automatic. The +P was just a name change in 1974, there was no pressure change. The 38 Super and 38 Automatic are dimensionally the same but have different pressure limits and the +P name is intended to make the difference clear.

See the link I posted.

[wild cat mccane]

Thanks 74A95

[44 AMP]

Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?

Can't say which it is, but there is no denying the fact that the .38 Super is very popular in countries that prohibit civilians from owning "military calibers". Several of those countries are in Latin America.

Another possibly reason for the Super's popularity in those places is that, often the Super will chamber and fire in guns made for the 9mm Largo. Also, the Super will chamber and fire in SOME .38special and .357 Magnum revolvers.

The specs say it shouldn't work, but some gun and ammo combinations will, due to the various tolerances involved.

[Jim Watson]

Can't say which it is, but there is no denying the fact that the .38 Super is very popular in countries that prohibit civilians from owning "military calibers". Several of those countries are in Latin America.

I don't know about other places but the largest calibers allowed for private ownership in Mexico are .380 ACP and .38 Special, the glory days of the South of the Border Super are past.

Another possibly reason for the Super's popularity in those places is that, often the Super will chamber and fire in guns made for the 9mm Largo. Also, the Super will chamber and fire in SOME .38special and .357 Magnum revolvers.

A Spanish pistol marked 9mm/.38 is meant for both 9mm Largo (Spanish version of 9mm Bergman Bayard) and .38 Auto. .38 Super is an overload but they seem to hold up fairly well.

Once upon a time, CCI ran off some 9mm Largo Blazer aluminum. It did not seem to sell well, so it was discontinued and blown out cheap by distributors. A guy here stocked up on it and shot it in his SVI Super where it fed, fired, and functioned. Cheap powder gave it a bright flash, though.

[Webleymkv]

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?

It depends on the country and it wasn't just about getting around the prohibition on 9mm. At one time, .38 Super was relatively popular in Central and South American countries, Mexico in particular. This is because these countries banned civilian ownership of not only 9x19, but anything they deemed to be a "military" caliber. As I understand it, .38 Super was popular at the time not so much as a substitute for 9mm, which hadn't really caught on so much in the western hemisphere yet, but for .45 ACP since commercially made 1911's were available and, at that time, legal in .38 Super. As I understand it now, .38 Super has subsequently been banned in Mexico and other Central and South American countries and in many, if not most, of them the largest handgun calibers now allowed are .380 Auto for a semi-auto or .38 Special for a revolver.

In Europe, where 9x19 is also commonly banned as a "military" caliber, the more common approach seems to be either 9x21 or .30 Luger as most 9x19 pistols need only a barrel swap to be rechambered to either of those cartridges.

Also, just ammoseeking 38 Super. It's amazing how much of the commercial options are +P

In the case of .38 Super, +P doesn't mean quite the same thing as it does in other handgun calibers. SAAMI does not have both a "standard pressure" and "+P" specification for .38 Super like they do for .38 Special, 9x19, and .45 Auto. Instead, most commercially-produced .38 Super ammunition is labeled "+P" to dissuade its use in older guns chambered for .38 ACP as the two cartridges, while having vastly different pressure specs, are dimensionally identical and thus it would be possible to chamber and fire a .38 Super round in a gun chambered for .38 ACP though it certainly wouldn't be safe to do so. In addition to the +P designation, much of the commercially produced .38 Super ammunition is loaded in nickel-plated brass to further differentiate it from .38 ACP even when the .38 Super ammunition in question is just target FMJ.

Honestly, the +P label and nickel-plated brass seems pretty superfluous to me as there aren't all that many guns in .38 ACP still floating around out there (they haven't been produced in nearly, if not over, 100 years) and, to my knowledge, no major ammo maker has produced .38 ACP ammunition for many decades. Furthermore, if someone were foolish enough to try to shoot modern .38 Super ammunition in an old, rare, and likely quite valuable gun chambered in .38 ACP, I doubt that nickel plated cases or a +P headstamp would stop them.

[Jim Watson]

In Europe, where 9x19 is also commonly banned as a "military" caliber, the more common approach seems to be either 9x21 or .30 Luger as most 9x19 pistols need only a barrel swap to be rechambered to either of those cartridges.

I have read that Italy has dropped that restriction and you may now have a 9mm P.

Honestly, the +P label and nickel-plated brass seems pretty superfluous to me as there aren't all that many guns in .38 ACP still floating around

Well, we still get warnings not to shoot .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40 High Velocity in revolvers and 1873 Winchesters even though the hot loads haven't been made in decades. The last I saw was .32-20 in a 1960 listing.

[RickB]

Is it fact or fiction that 38 Super kinda still exists at all because the no go on 9mm use in some countries?

In the U.S., .38 Super was the dominant caliber in USPSA competition for many years, because it could somewhat safely attain "major power", when 9mm Luger could not.
Friends were loading 115gr bullets to over 1500fps in their Supers, 25 years ago.
Changes in rules and advancements in propellants has allowed 9mm to dominate in today's competition.

[wild cat mccane]

That was kinda the next question I decided not to ask, but am now. Seems like the high pressure .40 with a 135gr or 155gr accomplishes a lot of what 38 Super does on paper and where mag capacity isn't important in a 1911.

On RIA, their 22TCM or 9R are the high FPS sport shooting handgun rounds and RIA makes guns for them.

But both are not what was asked.

[Jim Watson]

The main advantage of .38 Super is that its OAL is made to fit the 1911 action and it feeds well.
The main disadvantage is cost. Super ammunition is more expensive than 9mm and if you are a reloader you will spend a lot of time looking for empties.

[rc]

I bought some of the Federal 38 super 115grain JHP ammo some years back and it was rather erratic and wasn't 100% reliable in my 4" Kimber. The only viable factory load I have for defense out of my super is some Aguila 130 grain FMJ. I loaded up some hot 124 grain XTP hollow points in new brass to a bit over 1250 fps and my gun loves the load. The 38 super factory ammo was running about $20 a box or a bit less before the pandemic. Now it's running even higher than $20 a box while the 9mm luger is available well under $20 a box again. I think of the 38 super an enthusiasts caliber. You either have to be well off with money to burn on over priced ammo and willing to grab your ankles to pay for it or you have to load your own ammo to get costs down. The only effective Hollow point ammo is really the expensive stuff like Buffalo Bore and Corbon at over $1 a round. In addition to the similar 38 auto 38 super and 9mm Largo there is the rimless 38 super comp and the thick cased 9x23 Winchester with factory ammo running into the 1400s to duplicate 357 mag with 125 grain bullets, but it's not very popular due to the cost of ammo and guns harder to find than for a 38 super.

As far as bullet set back in the 357 sig it has to do with the short neck needing fairly straight sided bullets to maintain neck tension. Any set back of a tapered 115 or 124 grain standard profile 9mm round nose may result in total loss of bullet tension and the bullet totally collapsing back into the case. Bullets that are Truncated like the Hornady XTP are needed for the 357 Sig to avoid this known problem. Any 9mm bullet and many 357 bullets are just fine to use in a 38 super plus you can use straight walled carbide dies that don't require case lube. The super is not as finicky to load as the 9x23 which has a very thick case web and reduced capacity when compared with the straight walled classic 38 super case. You might have problems seating a 158grain lead RN bullet in 9x23 but they seat fine and shoot great out of 38 super for target work.

The 40 loaded with 155 and 135 grain bullets is ballistically right up there with the 357 mag manstopper loads. I've loaded 180s, 155s and 135s in 40 smith and wesson and the 180 grain load is a thumper kinda like a 45 running around 950fps out of a 4 inch gun. The 155s have much more violent upset when driven above 1,150fps while the 135s can easily top 1,350fps with violent expansion. On the flip side the flash and blast increases a lot when you hot rod the 40 but it is a potent round that people disparage next to the 10mm. However, it is often loaded to the same speeds as the 40 for target loads or maybe 100fps faster in some cases for factory hollow points.

[wild cat mccane]

Well, I've learned things. Thanks!

[stagpanther]

if you are a reloader you will spend a lot of time looking for empties.

Are they that hard to find now? It was fairly widely available in bulk both regular brass and nickle-plated when I got my 38 super 1911. I wonder if it's a dying niche cartridge.

[44 AMP]

I wonder if it's a dying niche cartridge.

yep, sure is, and has been for the past 90 years!!!

[Jim Watson]

Are they that hard to find now?

I meant you would spend a lot of time looking for your ejected brass on the ground, and distinguishing it from 9mm. If you are shooting factory ammo or loading new brass, that is not a problem.

[Don P]

There a few die hards out there. Majority of competition shooters have switched over to 9mm and loading them to achieve major power factor just because 9mm brass is plentiful

[Mike Irwin]

"Well, we still get warnings not to shoot .32-20, .38-40, and .44-40 High Velocity in revolvers and 1873 Winchesters even though the hot loads haven't been made in decades. The last I saw was .32-20 in a 1960 listing. "

I still see boxes of HV .32-20 occasionally at gun shows and, more importantly, in mixed lots of loose .32-20 rounds sold in baggies.

So it's still out there.

[rodfac]

As to the hunting possibilities with a .38 Super...for small game, chucks or coyotes, it would do well with some stalking to get you in close...but for deer, I'd not recommend it, nor the 9mm. But for a fun gun, good for SD purposes etc., I like the .38 Super over the 9mm as it offers more in the way of load possibilities: very high speeds with 115 & 124 gr JHP's make it a good defense gun, and the same case volume will still allow good practice ammunition with tailored loads.

I've done two conversions for lack of a better word. Here's what worked for me with a 70's series .45 ACP Colt Combat Commander...and also worked with a much later built Ruger .45 SR1911 CMD. Can't say how it would work with your frame, but I had no issues with parts fitting without modification on either of the two guns. Both of which follow Colt's Commander tolerances. Other than replacing the .45 Slide Stop with a Colt made 9mm stop, a 9mm (IIRC) ejector, & a 9mm/.38 Super recoil spring, no other parts needed work. Below, is the story.

Over 30 years ago, while perusing the old "Shotgun News" (printed gun ads before the internet), I found a guy selling complete Commander length Series 70 Colt slides, bushings, & barrels with links in 9mm and .38 Super. At the time, I had a nickeled Colt Combat Commander in .45 and bought both caliber uppers for about $100 each...it might even have been less.

Both fit on the frame just fine and would cycle, but ejection using.45 ejector was iffy. To fix that, I installed a 9mm ejector, and that cured the ejection problem, and also worked equally well with the original .45 slide/bbl. The gun functioned just fine with factory rounds or handloads.

I also acquired the necessary 9mm and .38 Super magazines but soon found that the .38 Super was all I really needed as it functioned just fine in either caliber. Reading Kuhnhausen's shop manuals, I found that I should have used a caliber specific slide stop as well, tho the gun did just fine with the .45 stop.

Range testing showed that the .38 was the most accurate, better even than the original .45 ACP tube, albeit, by a small margin. All three are all capable of sub-2.5" groups from a sand bag rest at 25 yds with handloads and some factory ammunition. Too, the 9mm and .38 barrels were interchangeable in either 9 or 38 slide and the point of impact doesn't change. Pretty remarkable I think.

When Ruger came out with their 1911's in the Commander length (the CMD), I tried the 9mm and .38 Super upper assemblies that had worked so well on my Colt and found that both were equally good on the Ruger. Ruger must have stuck pretty close to the Colt Series 70 tolerances I'd say.

The only glitch in this whole saga, is that the slide will not always lock back after the last round. I've guessed that it's a spring or load velocity/pressure issue but have never really trouble shot it.

I load for both calibers but keep my loads fairly conservative, not exceeding 9mm velocities in either caliber, for the most part. Of the currently available bullets, the 130 gr FMJ RN by Winchester is the most accurate in the .38, but Montana Gold 124 JHP's or Hornady's version do about as well....and Missouri Bullet Co's 124 LSWC's feed, function and provide a lower velocity and equally accurate practice round. I also cast my own as well and have found that Lyman's venerable, 356402, a truncated conical sized to 0.356+ does well too.

Lastly, when Ciener was offering .22 uppers for the 1911 Commander length slide, I bought one and it's accurate & quite reliable, but only if.....I keep the slide rails clear of grease and lube sparingly with something like RemOil or CLP and swab out the bbl. and slide face/ejector.

A decade ago, I gave gave the Colt to one of my sons, but kept the Ruger as well as the 9mm and .38 uppers...thus making it a truly 4-caliber all steel Commander.

HTH's & best regards, Rod .... Here's a pic of the Ruger CMD with the .38 Super upper in place.