Store clerk 1, Dirtbag 0

jlbpa · June 11, 2006, 04:29 PM

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/14795238.htm

Bob F. · June 12, 2006, 09:16 PM

Col Jeff would be proud!!

Hardtarget · June 12, 2006, 09:40 PM

I'll say this...security cameras can hurt you bad if you mess up relating "exactly how it happened".
I can hear Joe Friday now..."just the facts! and we will view the tape"
Keep your wits sharp!
Mark.

Hayley · June 12, 2006, 11:05 PM

I read that earlier today--not far from where I work. There is a real economy to the story: bad guy declares robbery, clerk (of interest, to me anyhow, a woman) draws and fires, BG exits store and collapses, no charges. the end!

Harley Quinn · June 12, 2006, 11:17 PM

I think she would do some time. Sounds like a killing to me, not self defense.

I need some more information before I am on her side. What if it was a set up and she asked the guy to do it as a joke, and she killed him? No weapon shown, what kind of weapon? Just asked for the money? Dead for less then $100.00 probably, sad.

I don't like the idea that you can kill someone that easy. Just me I guess.
I know I am going to catch some heat here, but what if?

HQ

Bender711 · June 12, 2006, 11:46 PM

yup you are going to catch alot of heat on this one. Personaly I think that any one dumb enough to rob a 7/11 type store is better off dead. And that they should be giving this lady a medal.

stratus · June 13, 2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

I think she would do some time. Sounds like a killing to me, not self defense.

I need some more information before I am on her side. What if it was a set up and she asked the guy to do it as a joke, and she killed him? No weapon shown, what kind of weapon? Just asked for the money? Dead for less then $100.00 probably, sad.

While I think that scenario is highly unlikely, if the robber didn't produce a weapon, then she perhaps fired too early.

An excerpt from the above article: "Curless said Harmon implied to the store clerk that he had a weapon."

Implied?! That's a pretty subtle way to do things for someone who wants the money out of a register. Even if the BG explicitly stated that he had a gun, that's enough to draw on him, but until he attempts to do something more, the trigger should not be pulled. If he demanded money, and was threatening the clerk, why not use OC spray, or draw and command the BG to back off and lay on the ground, then call police with the gun trained on him - if he refused to obey commands and took further action against the clerk, then a shooting would have been justified (at that point she would have had no choice anyway; if you draw on someone and they advance on you, whether you have a weapon or not, you have to shoot if you don't want them to get your weapon from you and use it against you).

Perhaps the article isn't telling us all the facts, but the most I would ever do if I were working at a store, and a person demanded money out of the register, only implying that they had a gun, I would incapacitate them with OC spray, or if I didn't have any, I would draw on the BG and issue commands. Bottom line, I wouldn't really want to take the time to find out if they actually had a weapon. When non-lethal force is sufficient to end a confrontation, then why resort to lethal force? That's just plain wrong.

Moreover - and this is important - what reason would an armed person have to give away the fact that they were in fact armed, before producing a weapon? It precludes the chance for initiative, and doesn't make sense.

I know these things are a lot harder for the person who has to make the call whether to pull the trigger or not. It's easy for us to sit here and say how it should have been handled, and much harder to be in the actual situation. Though I think the shooting was a bit premature, it is better for it to have turned out this way than if the clerk had been hurt or killed in the incident from failing to defend herself at all. Just so no one gets the wrong idea about what I'm saying, I do not feel sorry at all for the moron who attempted to rob the place. He more or less got what he asked for. I just worry about when people who carry jump the gun - it reflects badly on people like us who are heavily invested in the Second Amendment.

And, as with Harley's corner, if I catch heat for this post, I'll take comfort in the fact that it's only online heat. This is, after all, the internet, where everyone is more vigilant.

BillCA · June 13, 2006, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harley Quinn

I think she would do some time. Sounds like a killing to me, not self defense.

I need some more information before I am on her side. What if it was a set up and she asked the guy to do it as a joke, and she killed him? No weapon shown, what kind of weapon? Just asked for the money? Dead for less then $100.00 probably, sad

.

Spoken like a true Kalifornian. Remind me to make sure you're not on any jury judging me.

Let's see... female clerk, alone in the market, man enters and demands cash. He does something to imply he's armed.

What if... she complies and he then ushers her into the back to rape and kill her?

What if... he does have a gun and decides she's looked at him too much and shoots her?

What if... he decides she's being too slow and decides to beat her down then kick her face to mush?

Quote:

The SubCity Market, located at 500 East Seventh Street, has been robbed several times in the past year and was burglarized a week ago, according to Lexington police. In past attempts, the clerks have complied with the requests of the robbers.

So the clerk knows the store has been robbed before and recently hit by burglary. Not the safest place to work, but if you need a job badly, you'll take what's available.

Quote:

"This clearly paints a picture of the dangerous environment of armed robberies, whether you are the robber or whether you are the clerk," Curless said.

Yup. And when it becomes more dangerous for the criminals, they start looking for "softer" targets.

Lastly, it's not the amount of money involved that matters. This thug has decided to live outside the law, showing his disregard for the fundamental rules we all try to live by. He's willing to use threats, intimidation and probably a good deal of force to take what he wants from someone who's earned it. If he shows this kind of disregard for the law then how can you presume that he will suddenly "play by the rules" and leave you breathing when he's done?

BillCA · June 13, 2006, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stratus

Perhaps the article isn't telling us all the facts, but the most I would ever do if I were working at a store, and a person demanded money out of the register, only implying that they had a gun, I would incapacitate them with OC spray, or if I didn't have any, I would draw on the BG and issue commands. Bottom line, I wouldn't really want to take the time to find out if they actually had a weapon.

Obviously you've never worked behind the counter of a 7/11 or a stop & rob.
There is often no place to hide or take cover. Quite often the BG enters and once at the counter tells the clerk to hand over the money "...before I blow your [expletive] head off!" ... or some other eloquent turn of phrase. All of this for $8.25/hour and you're not wearing body armor.

Like you, I'm not going to waste time to find out if that's a gun in his pocket, a cell phone or just his finger. He's shown his felonious intent and attempted to put me in fear of my life (real or implied through concealment). At that point I will introduce him to my law firm of Remington, Smith & Wesson.

stratus · June 13, 2006, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Obviously you've never worked behind the counter of a 7/11 or a stop & rob.
There is often no place to hide or take cover.

Show me the bit in my last post where I talked about hiding or taking cover.

Better yet, show me evidence that drawing and commanding with intent to shoot IF the BG moves a finger after that point, RATHER than shooting right away, is less effective when the BG is threatening violence but has not yet drawn his weapon.

Trust me, if I were to draw, one hint of a false move on the BG's part and I'd shoot. And very possibly, the article is not giving us ALL the facts - perhaps everything happened so fast that it really was a good shoot. I'm not discounting this possibility, because I wasn't there.

GlocksRfun · June 13, 2006, 01:06 AM

I used to talk to a girl from Kentucky. They don't mess around down there. They are far away enough from the coasts to not be sucked into the crazyness. If your gonna be stupid down there, you are gonna get messed up. Plain and simple. If you wanna be an idiot, go to San Fran. I'm sure people there will let you rob them all day.

308Enfield · June 13, 2006, 07:48 AM

As others have correctly said, we're missing details on this event so we can't know with certainty what happened. From a legal standpoint, I think its necessary to consider the disparity of force argument. We have a male robber and female clerk, which even in an unarmed situation gives a certain amount of validity to the female for drawing a weapon. The male in question was a ROBBER, which confirms criminal intent. If the guy was 220 pounds and the lady behind the counter was 120 pounds would he need a weapon to make her fear for her life? Again, these are details we don't know, but I thought it was worth bringing up. A robber, whether armed or not, is committing a crime and therefore can be considered dangerous. By default I'm usually on the side of believing the person who's doing honest work to support themselves, not the criminals who try to interfere with that.

Harley Quinn · June 13, 2006, 08:02 AM

Well one thing I am not, is liberal regarding self defense, but I have to agree maybe all the story is not in.
I would probably shoot as fast or faster and straighter if the situation demanded it.
I have seen a lot of dead bodies and to kill someone is a serious situation and while it is easy to talk about it, the situation should fall under the correct paramiters other wise you are just a killer.

We are having an increase in gang related shooting and crime against victims who are just that, victims.

I understand in Kentucky they figure an eye for an eye. I got a feeling that store clerk won't be in that town much longer.

But I believe if the sheriff and the prosecuter after fully investigating it let her go. Then it was within her lawful right. One thing her life just changed big time. I hope she is as stong as she appears right now, she will need it.

HQ

mete · June 13, 2006, 08:45 AM

It's a shame , now she'll be forever banned from joining the National Organization of Women.

**44 AMP** · June 13, 2006, 09:06 AM

Since as reported, no charges are being filed, it appears that this woman did exactly as many on this board recommend. When she drew her (concealed?) weapon, she used it! Apparently well enough.

Even if it turns out the would be robber hand nothing but his finger in his pocket, then only thing it changes is the stupidity level of the robber. The clerk did what she had to do based on what she believed, that her life was in danger.

If more details are reported significantly changing the circumstances, then I will revise my opinion. Until then, I say, good for her.

Hayley · June 13, 2006, 10:20 AM

"What if it was a set up and she asked the guy to do it as a joke, and she killed him?"

uh, what if this guy knew about the recent robberies in that store and her was just trying to scare her,

or

what if she was accutely PMS-ing and this guy just used the wrong tone of voice,

or

what if they had been lovers and he just found out she had been cheating on him and had just dropped by to ask for his ring back,

or

what if...

Look, this is a rough part of town. The guy confronts this girl, corned alone in a tiny market that has been robbed several times recently with some threat of violence. I wonder, what advice would one give her in that circumstance. What if she had been alone in a parking lot? Maybe investigations will produce evidence of some Jerry Springer subplot, but til then I give her some credit of self defense. Also, I doubt she'll have to leave town. His family acknowledges that he was a bad egg, and assaulting women doesn't rank in the grass roots honor code. It happens, but the perpetrators are generally regarded as scum bags--even by the family.

Harley Quinn · June 13, 2006, 11:08 AM

That is good to know. Like I said if it is as it appears right now more power to her.
But if it was a cop who shot this guy down like that I bet it would not be so one sided for the cop, not on this forum anyway.

Fear is an individual thing, all do not fear the same. I hope she gets some good counseling.

HQ

Ares45 · June 23, 2006, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Sounds like a killing to me, not self defense.

If some dude walks up to with his hand in his pocket and and says, "I have a gun, give me your money." ...What are you going to do ask him to show it to you???

The law reads that a reasonable person has to BELIEVE his or her life is in danger. It says nothing about documenting the threat before opening fire. If a man says he has a gun you best believe him and act accordingly.

Bullrock · June 23, 2006, 05:21 PM

Quote:

If some dude walks up to with his hand in his pocket and and says, "I have a gun, give me your money." ...What are you going to do ask him to show it to you???

Yup! I agree with that. If you give him time to show it to you, then he has the drop on you, and if he is in a killing mood, you just bought it.

On the other hand if one of his hands is in his pocket, he may already have the drop on you. She did good!!!

Harley Quinn · June 23, 2006, 05:25 PM

Any follow up on this shooting? Anymore news worthy items?

HQ

Maser · June 23, 2006, 10:57 PM

Well, I read this all and I want to reply, but took a long time to think of what to say. I think there needs to be more details to this story. From what I read, I am neutral. I am not on any of their sides. On one hand I think the woman clerk had every right to defend herself, but on the other hand I don't feel that she should have shot so quickly. If I was her and the BG was saying he had a weapon, I would draw my weapon on him and keep it aimed at him and then if he did any sort of movement to where it looked like he was going for a weapon then I would fire.

I just think the woman got scared for her life and fired. If she felt that her life was in danger and if that's how the laws are in Kentuky, then I see really no problem. If that happend here in Cali it would be a whole different story.

Goldy · June 25, 2006, 01:57 PM

JEEZ; You armchair quarterbacks give me a pain! Anybody read Jeff Cooper? In a case in court he proved that a person can draw and fire on another, before the second can react and pull his/her trigger. When the robber said he had a gun/weapon he became fair game.

Before you can be a judge,you need to know the basics. You can't wait for a visual clue and be fast enough to save your life. Human reaction time just does not work that way. You been watching too many westerns!!!

Don't believe it? Try it.

P.S. don't use real guns.

Harley Quinn · June 25, 2006, 02:42 PM

You have actually made the case for the bad guy. You might not understand what I am saying but that is ok.

HQ

444 · June 25, 2006, 02:53 PM

"When the robber said he had a gun/weapon he became fair game."
Come on. Haven't you ever watched a 1950s cowboy movie that taught us that gunfights have to be fair ? You have to first let the bad guy have every possible opportunity to kill you before you defend yourself against the threat of deadly force................... or so a couple guys on here seem to think.

"Dead for less then $100.00 probably, sad."
This is always my favorite liberal agrument. It has nothing at all to do with the threat of death. It has nothing to do with the commision of a felony. No, it is about the money. You see, there is a cut off point. If the amount is insufficent, you can't defend your life. I am not sure if there is a cap on the high end or not ? I wasn't present at the rules committe meeting.
Of course since I am not from kalifornia I am not sad in the least.

Over the last 30-40-50 years we have tried to become a kindler/gentler nation. A nation that tolorates bad and criminal behavior while embracing criminals. A nation that rewards the non-productive. A nation that adores the people who are bringing our socity down.
News Flash: It isn't working.
Definition of insanity: When you keep doing the same thing over and over again but each time you expect different results.

CrustyFN · June 25, 2006, 03:27 PM

444
I am from California and I don't think that way. I think the guy got what he deserved. If it were me I would hope I would react the same way. Hard to tell until you are in that situation. But for you to assume that just because somebody is from a certain state that they have to think a certain way in my opion makes you pretty narrow minded. Does that mean everybody in your state is narrow minded? I'm not going to judge the rest of your state. I will let them speak for them self.

June 11, 2006, 04:29 PM	#1
jlbpa Senior Member Join Date: September 25, 2000 Posts: 196	Store clerk 1, Dirtbag 0 http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/14795238.htm

June 12, 2006, 09:40 PM	#3
Hardtarget Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2001 Location: Nashville, Tn. Posts: 683	I'll say this...security cameras can hurt you bad if you mess up relating "exactly how it happened". I can hear Joe Friday now..."just the facts! and we will view the tape" Keep your wits sharp! Mark. __________________ ...even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.

June 12, 2006, 11:05 PM	#4
Hayley Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2004 Posts: 295	* I read that earlier today--not far from where I work. There is a real economy to the story: bad guy declares robbery, clerk (of interest, to me anyhow, a woman) draws and fires, BG exits store and collapses, no charges. the end!

June 12, 2006, 11:17 PM	#5
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	In California I think she would do some time. Sounds like a killing to me, not self defense. I need some more information before I am on her side. What if it was a set up and she asked the guy to do it as a joke, and she killed him? No weapon shown, what kind of weapon? Just asked for the money? Dead for less then $100.00 probably, sad. I don't like the idea that you can kill someone that easy. Just me I guess. I know I am going to catch some heat here, but what if? HQ

June 12, 2006, 11:46 PM	#6
Bender711 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 340	yup you are going to catch alot of heat on this one. Personaly I think that any one dumb enough to rob a 7/11 type store is better off dead. And that they should be giving this lady a medal. __________________ From a Mod "Seeing as how "butt Smurf" is not profanity in the usual sense and humorously creative, I'll leave this up for now"

June 12, 2006, 09:16 PM	#2
Bob F. Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2004 Location: Southeastern WV (left out "north") Posts: 195	Col Jeff would be proud!!

June 13, 2006, 01:06 AM	#11
GlocksRfun Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 423	I used to talk to a girl from Kentucky. They don't mess around down there. They are far away enough from the coasts to not be sucked into the crazyness. If your gonna be stupid down there, you are gonna get messed up. Plain and simple. If you wanna be an idiot, go to San Fran. I'm sure people there will let you rob them all day.

June 13, 2006, 07:48 AM	#12
308Enfield Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 239	As others have correctly said, we're missing details on this event so we can't know with certainty what happened. From a legal standpoint, I think its necessary to consider the disparity of force argument. We have a male robber and female clerk, which even in an unarmed situation gives a certain amount of validity to the female for drawing a weapon. The male in question was a ROBBER, which confirms criminal intent. If the guy was 220 pounds and the lady behind the counter was 120 pounds would he need a weapon to make her fear for her life? Again, these are details we don't know, but I thought it was worth bringing up. A robber, whether armed or not, is committing a crime and therefore can be considered dangerous. By default I'm usually on the side of believing the person who's doing honest work to support themselves, not the criminals who try to interfere with that. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

June 13, 2006, 08:02 AM	#13
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Thanks Stratus Well one thing I am not, is liberal regarding self defense, but I have to agree maybe all the story is not in. I would probably shoot as fast or faster and straighter if the situation demanded it. I have seen a lot of dead bodies and to kill someone is a serious situation and while it is easy to talk about it, the situation should fall under the correct paramiters other wise you are just a killer. We are having an increase in gang related shooting and crime against victims who are just that, victims. I understand in Kentucky they figure an eye for an eye. I got a feeling that store clerk won't be in that town much longer. But I believe if the sheriff and the prosecuter after fully investigating it let her go. Then it was within her lawful right. One thing her life just changed big time. I hope she is as stong as she appears right now, she will need it. HQ

June 13, 2006, 08:45 AM	#14
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	It's a shame , now she'll be forever banned from joining the National Organization of Women.

June 13, 2006, 09:06 AM	#15
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,820	Good for her Since as reported, no charges are being filed, it appears that this woman did exactly as many on this board recommend. When she drew her (concealed?) weapon, she used it! Apparently well enough. Even if it turns out the would be robber hand nothing but his finger in his pocket, then only thing it changes is the stupidity level of the robber. The clerk did what she had to do based on what she believed, that her life was in danger. If more details are reported significantly changing the circumstances, then I will revise my opinion. Until then, I say, good for her. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 13, 2006, 10:20 AM	#16
Hayley Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2004 Posts: 295	"What if it was a set up and she asked the guy to do it as a joke, and she killed him?" uh, what if this guy knew about the recent robberies in that store and her was just trying to scare her, or what if she was accutely PMS-ing and this guy just used the wrong tone of voice, or what if they had been lovers and he just found out she had been cheating on him and had just dropped by to ask for his ring back, or what if... Look, this is a rough part of town. The guy confronts this girl, corned alone in a tiny market that has been robbed several times recently with some threat of violence. I wonder, what advice would one give her in that circumstance. What if she had been alone in a parking lot? Maybe investigations will produce evidence of some Jerry Springer subplot, but til then I give her some credit of self defense. Also, I doubt she'll have to leave town. His family acknowledges that he was a bad egg, and assaulting women doesn't rank in the grass roots honor code. It happens, but the perpetrators are generally regarded as scum bags--even by the family.

June 13, 2006, 11:08 AM	#17
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Hayley That is good to know. Like I said if it is as it appears right now more power to her. But if it was a cop who shot this guy down like that I bet it would not be so one sided for the cop, not on this forum anyway. Fear is an individual thing, all do not fear the same. I hope she gets some good counseling. HQ

June 23, 2006, 05:25 PM	#20
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	jlbpa Any follow up on this shooting? Anymore news worthy items? HQ

June 23, 2006, 10:57 PM	#21
Maser Senior Member Join Date: May 21, 2006 Location: Mysterious Cities of Gold Posts: 920	Well, I read this all and I want to reply, but took a long time to think of what to say. I think there needs to be more details to this story. From what I read, I am neutral. I am not on any of their sides. On one hand I think the woman clerk had every right to defend herself, but on the other hand I don't feel that she should have shot so quickly. If I was her and the BG was saying he had a weapon, I would draw my weapon on him and keep it aimed at him and then if he did any sort of movement to where it looked like he was going for a weapon then I would fire. I just think the woman got scared for her life and fired. If she felt that her life was in danger and if that's how the laws are in Kentuky, then I see really no problem. If that happend here in Cali it would be a whole different story.

June 25, 2006, 01:57 PM	#22
Goldy Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2004 Posts: 163	JEEZ; You armchair quarterbacks give me a pain! Anybody read Jeff Cooper? In a case in court he proved that a person can draw and fire on another, before the second can react and pull his/her trigger. When the robber said he had a gun/weapon he became fair game. Before you can be a judge,you need to know the basics. You can't wait for a visual clue and be fast enough to save your life. Human reaction time just does not work that way. You been watching too many westerns!!! Don't believe it? Try it. P.S. don't use real guns.

June 25, 2006, 02:42 PM	#23
Harley Quinn Junior member Join Date: August 30, 2005 Location: State of KALI Posts: 1,531	Goldy You have actually made the case for the bad guy. You might not understand what I am saying but that is ok. HQ

June 25, 2006, 02:53 PM	#24
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	"When the robber said he had a gun/weapon he became fair game." Come on. Haven't you ever watched a 1950s cowboy movie that taught us that gunfights have to be fair ? You have to first let the bad guy have every possible opportunity to kill you before you defend yourself against the threat of deadly force................... or so a couple guys on here seem to think. "Dead for less then $100.00 probably, sad." This is always my favorite liberal agrument. It has nothing at all to do with the threat of death. It has nothing to do with the commision of a felony. No, it is about the money. You see, there is a cut off point. If the amount is insufficent, you can't defend your life. I am not sure if there is a cap on the high end or not ? I wasn't present at the rules committe meeting. Of course since I am not from kalifornia I am not sad in the least. Over the last 30-40-50 years we have tried to become a kindler/gentler nation. A nation that tolorates bad and criminal behavior while embracing criminals. A nation that rewards the non-productive. A nation that adores the people who are bringing our socity down. News Flash: It isn't working. Definition of insanity: When you keep doing the same thing over and over again but each time you expect different results. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

June 25, 2006, 03:27 PM	#25
CrustyFN Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: West Virginia Posts: 2,258	444 I am from California and I don't think that way. I think the guy got what he deserved. If it were me I would hope I would react the same way. Hard to tell until you are in that situation. But for you to assume that just because somebody is from a certain state that they have to think a certain way in my opion makes you pretty narrow minded. Does that mean everybody in your state is narrow minded? I'm not going to judge the rest of your state. I will let them speak for them self.