For Those Who Open Carry:

smince · June 13, 2010, 07:09 PM

Recent incident:
http://www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/95999354.html

Quote:

Man Legally Carrying Gun Robbed at Gunpoint

By Melanie Stout

MILWAUKEE - A Milwaukee man found out the hard way that carrying a gun for protection doesn't always keep you safe. In fact, it may have made him a target.

The 34-year-old man legally owned a handgun and carried it out in the open in his holster for protection.

Neighbors say they knew he was always armed.

"It was kind of scary to just see him walking around all the time with that gun kind of just out in the open," said Shambria Mayham Autman. She lives near Teutonia and Good Hope and said they called him "The guy with the gun."

But it wasn't scary for at least one person who robbed "The guy with the gun" at gunpoint.

"I think he was trying to scare people off like, 'Yeah, don't mess with me,' kind of attitude, but it didn't work," Mayham Autman explained.

The president of Wisconsin Carry, Nik Clark, says 100's of thousands of people open carry and he's never heard of anything like this.

"So it really is a very unusual situation, very unique," Clark said.

The victim didn't want to go on camera but said he carried the gun because he had been jumped and held up at knife point in the past. He believes, in his case, open carry made him a target and he will no longer do it.

He said his case proves gun owners should have the right to carry concealed weapons.

Clark agrees. "By and large it is a significant deterrent, open carry is, but I think it really does make the point that Wisconsin should have concealed carry along with open carry so that people who live in a very high crime neighborhood where criminals aren't deterred by firearms would have the ability to conceal carry to protect themselves. The two really work hand in hand," Clark said.

To quote someone else on the subject:

Quote:

A lamb with an open carry handgun does not become a wolf. He is still a lamb. A bandit can see right through that thin veneer.

Sefner · June 13, 2010, 08:48 PM

As more and more people OC this was bound to happen and OP's quote is right on the money, criminals can read body language like street signs. They would never rob the guy with his head up, back straight, in a suit, watching his surroundings even if he didn't have a gun. They will rob the guy who is acting shy, quiet, has his head down, is smiling at passersby funny, and is generally timid, even if that guy has a gun. In fact, the gun is an extra part of the loot! Guns do not scare criminals, actions taken by people scare criminals.

On this particular incident, there is a very interesting twist. The BG had trouble getting the gun out of the holster, so the OCer helped him get it out. A lot of people (myself included) are proponents of martial arts training along with firearms training. At this point, the robber is in melee range, he is distracted, has his head down, is not looking at where his gun is aiming, and is expecting movement from the OCer. In this vein, the BG is lucky the OCer wasn't trained in hand-to-hand combat or this could have ended very differently. But that goes back to OP's quote; BGs know who is an easy target. They wouldn't have picked this guy if they thought he wouldn't be an easy target.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark

"By and large it is a significant deterrent, open carry is, but I think it really does make the point that Wisconsin should have concealed carry along with open carry so that people who live in a very high crime neighborhood where criminals aren't deterred by firearms would have the ability to conceal carry to protect themselves. The two really work hand in hand,"

I would believe that this man sums it up nicely. It is unfortunate that this guy got robbed due to his gun. But I wonder how many times someone was robbed because they weren't OCing, or how many times someone CC'ing wasn't quick enough to draw to stop something, or didn't wear their firearm because it was too hot outside that day. Both options are extremely viable. This guy unfortunately chose the wrong one.

Lesson learned: Don't be a target. A gun does not put a force field around you that BGs can't penetrate. Don't be a target (reason it's there twice). OC is sometimes not a very good choice for some individuals.

45Gunner · June 14, 2010, 05:23 AM

One loses tactical advantage when open carrying and is demonstrated by the incident above, indeed may cause one to be a victim of crime instead of a deterrent. The victim in this case is extremely lucky he was not shot with his own gun...the BG just wanted the gun. What if the BG was hopped up on drugs and was in some wild tirade?

Absolute tactical advantage is held when the BG has no idea you are armed. And when you do carry, make sure you can easily present/draw your weapon from its place of concealment. How many of us really practice that? Ideally, drawing from your place of concealment should be practiced until you are fluid and comfortable, and the gun easily is removed from its holster and into the ready position. Further, this should be practiced with each different method of concealment you use and with each different holster you use. For most of us, it becomes far easier if we carry the same weapon in the same holster in the same body position each and every time in that it removes the thinking process and becomes a matter of muscle memory function.

As also mentioned, a knowledge of martial arts would be a positive. However, a decent defensive handgun course will teach some basic, good moves such as putting your non-shooting arm/hand out to protect your gun from being knocked/taken away while you draw.

Simply having a gun does not relieve you of the responsibly (to yourself and your loved ones) of maintaining your state of awareness, especially if you are in less than desirable neighborhoods. Apparently, the gentleman that let himself be robbed of his gun thought his gun being open carried was all he needed and let his attention to what was going on around him lapse.

And one more thing to think about: there is nothing that says your gun must remain in its holster if you conceal carry...just that it be concealed. There have been times in the past where I had inadvertently wondered while walking into areas that made me very uncomfortable. I discreetly removed my gun from its holster keeping it gripped in my hand with my hand tucked into the inside of my sport jacket thus eliminating the time to draw if the gun was needed. When I felt that I was no longer in an area of "threat", the gun went discreetly back into the holster, happy that I no longer needed to keep it at the ready.

howwie · June 14, 2010, 02:13 PM

I discreetly removed my gun from its holster keeping it gripped in my hand with my hand tucked into the inside of my sport jacket thus eliminating the time to draw if the gun was needed. When I felt that I was no longer in an area of "threat", the gun went discreetly back into the holster, happy that I no longer needed to keep it at the ready.

Interesting, I've never heard this before. It seems like a good idea, but what if someone saw this? would that be against the law? I know to be aware of my surroundings, but this seems like it could be risky. I pocket carry during the summer and during a high stress time I've gripped the gun in my pocket (of course finger off trigger

) just in case. But actually pulling it out and holding it behind a jacket, I've never really considered. Hmmm I'm going to have to think on this idea more.

OuTcAsT · June 15, 2010, 04:56 PM

Quote:

One loses tactical advantage when open carrying and is demonstrated by the incident above

I have to disagree, there is no evidence that this man O.C.ing made him a target.

I think the "tactical advantage" is won or lost by situational awareness as you seem to demonstrate with this:

Quote:

And one more thing to think about: there is nothing that says your gun must remain in its holster if you conceal carry...just that it be concealed. There have been times in the past where I had inadvertently wondered while walking into areas that made me very uncomfortable. I discreetly removed my gun from its holster keeping it gripped in my hand with my hand tucked into the inside of my sport jacket thus eliminating the time to draw if the gun was needed. When I felt that I was no longer in an area of "threat", the gun went discreetly back into the holster, happy that I no longer needed to keep it at the ready.

What you are demonstrating is awareness of your surroundings, and reacting accordingly. Would not matter which method of carry you employ, awareness is the key.

Glenn E. Meyer · June 15, 2010, 05:08 PM

It's a good point - we will have to wait and see if OC folks become specific targets. It wouldn't be hard to target such folks if you want the gun. Even spider-sense isn't going to stop someone from drawing from concealment and just shooting you. Will that happen? Empirical question - probably determined by the economics of such a property crime and the risks invovled.

We will see. Speculation is fun.

curt.45 · June 15, 2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

I discreetly removed my gun from its holster keeping it gripped in my hand with my hand tucked into the inside of my sport jacket thus eliminating the time to draw if the gun was needed.

45Gunner could you post a picture of how you do this? do you carry cross draw? I just don't understand exactly how you do it.

NavyLT · June 15, 2010, 05:42 PM

I would also suggest that a discussion about effective open carry based upon this incident is skewed... the guy lived in a crappy neighborhood full of criminals and gang bangers and WI does not allow concealed carry.

If I had to absolutely go into a neighborhood known to be gang banger territory, I would conceal.

1st priority is simply to stay out of those areas and remain in places likely to have the more common simple criminals looking to make a quick and easy buck: and choosing a target that is known to have a gun is not conducive to making a quick and easy buck!

June 14, 2010, 05:23 AM	#3
45Gunner Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2009 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 1,902	One loses tactical advantage when open carrying and is demonstrated by the incident above, indeed may cause one to be a victim of crime instead of a deterrent. The victim in this case is extremely lucky he was not shot with his own gun...the BG just wanted the gun. What if the BG was hopped up on drugs and was in some wild tirade? Absolute tactical advantage is held when the BG has no idea you are armed. And when you do carry, make sure you can easily present/draw your weapon from its place of concealment. How many of us really practice that? Ideally, drawing from your place of concealment should be practiced until you are fluid and comfortable, and the gun easily is removed from its holster and into the ready position. Further, this should be practiced with each different method of concealment you use and with each different holster you use. For most of us, it becomes far easier if we carry the same weapon in the same holster in the same body position each and every time in that it removes the thinking process and becomes a matter of muscle memory function. As also mentioned, a knowledge of martial arts would be a positive. However, a decent defensive handgun course will teach some basic, good moves such as putting your non-shooting arm/hand out to protect your gun from being knocked/taken away while you draw. Simply having a gun does not relieve you of the responsibly (to yourself and your loved ones) of maintaining your state of awareness, especially if you are in less than desirable neighborhoods. Apparently, the gentleman that let himself be robbed of his gun thought his gun being open carried was all he needed and let his attention to what was going on around him lapse. And one more thing to think about: there is nothing that says your gun must remain in its holster if you conceal carry...just that it be concealed. There have been times in the past where I had inadvertently wondered while walking into areas that made me very uncomfortable. I discreetly removed my gun from its holster keeping it gripped in my hand with my hand tucked into the inside of my sport jacket thus eliminating the time to draw if the gun was needed. When I felt that I was no longer in an area of "threat", the gun went discreetly back into the holster, happy that I no longer needed to keep it at the ready. __________________ 45Gunner May the Schwartz Be With You. NRA Instructor NRA Life Member Last edited by 45Gunner; June 14, 2010 at 05:32 AM.

June 14, 2010, 02:13 PM	#4
howwie Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2009 Location: Georgia Posts: 188	I discreetly removed my gun from its holster keeping it gripped in my hand with my hand tucked into the inside of my sport jacket thus eliminating the time to draw if the gun was needed. When I felt that I was no longer in an area of "threat", the gun went discreetly back into the holster, happy that I no longer needed to keep it at the ready. Interesting, I've never heard this before. It seems like a good idea, but what if someone saw this? would that be against the law? I know to be aware of my surroundings, but this seems like it could be risky. I pocket carry during the summer and during a high stress time I've gripped the gun in my pocket (of course finger off trigger) just in case. But actually pulling it out and holding it behind a jacket, I've never really considered. Hmmm I'm going to have to think on this idea more. __________________ "Whoever bleeds the least wins."

June 15, 2010, 05:08 PM	#6
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	It's a good point - we will have to wait and see if OC folks become specific targets. It wouldn't be hard to target such folks if you want the gun. Even spider-sense isn't going to stop someone from drawing from concealment and just shooting you. Will that happen? Empirical question - probably determined by the economics of such a property crime and the risks invovled. We will see. Speculation is fun. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 15, 2010, 05:42 PM	#8
NavyLT Junior member Join Date: January 25, 2006 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Posts: 1,719	I would also suggest that a discussion about effective open carry based upon this incident is skewed... the guy lived in a crappy neighborhood full of criminals and gang bangers and WI does not allow concealed carry. If I had to absolutely go into a neighborhood known to be gang banger territory, I would conceal. 1st priority is simply to stay out of those areas and remain in places likely to have the more common simple criminals looking to make a quick and easy buck: and choosing a target that is known to have a gun is not conducive to making a quick and easy buck!