Factory ammo too long?

Jevyod · May 10, 2012, 08:54 AM

So here's the deal; am working on starting my 1st reloads ( 7mm rem mag ) and i ran into something I thought seemed odd. I was making a dummy round to see where to seat my bullets. I was using the method of using a marker to scribble out rifling and seat a bit deeper till I had just a hint and then backed off another half turn. I ended up with an oal of 3.143. That seemed to my inexperience like a big difference from the manual's 3.290. So that got me thinking about the factory ammo I had been shooting. I remembered that sometimes i had to force the bolt closed. So i got one of those and tried it out and sure enough, i had some serious rifling marks. So would that create a higher pressure? I always thought it had a pretty serrious recoil. I also found one that I had fired, and there was a slight flattening of the primer. So now I have several questions; does my gun just not like factory ammo? Is it abnormal to need to shorten the length so much? Is my gun just "weird"? And i really do not like the way it looks with the bullets seated so far in the casing. Can I trim the casing shorter than the "trim to" length? I am open for education on this issue cause am still learning lots!
Ps. Am shooting a Remington 700

wncchester · May 10, 2012, 09:27 AM

Jev, we can understand your question but OAL is much simplier than you have been led to believe.

First, no weapon cares where the bullet nose hangs in space, all that matters is the jump before the bullet hits the rifling. Seating long in rifles can jam the lands and that does increase start pressure without any real increase in speed so we need to avoid that. Seating short insures a bit of bullet free run before hitting the rifling and that reduces peak pressure and, usually, speed - but not much. It's rare for factory ammo to contact the lands in a factory chamber and that's not what most of us would want but it's likely safe to use.

Next, load book OAL is simply what the book team used to develop the listed data, it's not a 'rule' for the rest of us any more than their powder charges are. It matters not what someone else does, IF we're going to custom make our ammo to work best in our rigs we need to experiment with both charges and seating to find what works best for us.

Back when I started reloading very little loading data included even a suggestion for OAL, we just set it as we wanted according to our bullet, chamber and magazine and then developed our charge. We lived.

Sport45 · May 10, 2012, 09:33 AM

I'd have a 'smith check it for headspace and see if it doesn't need finish reaming. A factory round shouldn't jam into the rifling. Trimming the brass won't help that.

10 Spot Terminator · May 10, 2012, 10:29 AM

Hi Jev,

Different bullets have different shapes to them with the point where the diameter of the bullet equals the bore diameter in your weapon being called the ogive. This will dictate the maximum seating depth allowed on any particular rifle cartridge. There are tools available from Hornady to measure this very thing and and the differences between similar bullets of the same weight by different manufacturers can be quite different. Seating shorter is not abnormal based on bullet selection and longer can get to be an issue if the length exceeds the magazine length or if there is an insufficient amount of the bullet base left seated in the catrige case neck . Many match shooters have their sweetheart loads set so long as to only allow hand feeding them one at a time . Being able to measure this prior to building your loads can come in very handy when picking a bullet that best compliments the amount of setback needed to fit the magazine, be seated well enough into the case and get the bullet jump to the lands ( rifling ) into a workable range as the freebore and or some throat errosion on well used firearms will be different. Hope this helps and if you need more insight here feel free to PM me.

10 Spot

Jevyod · May 11, 2012, 06:12 AM

Thanks for the info guys! That helps clear some things up. So much to learn yet.

243winxb · May 11, 2012, 07:43 AM

A factory round shouldn't jam into the rifling. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...n%20Magnum.pdf Contact Remington- http://www.remington.com/pages/our-c...pany-info.aspx

flyguy958 · May 11, 2012, 07:47 AM

OAL is not the best way to measure seating depth. I found this out using Nosler Partition 180 grain bullets. I failed to notice they have two different designs for the same bullet. OAL of these are totally different. Below are links to the two. See the difference in OAL of the bullet. I now test each new bullet seating depth in the rifle before I start loading.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/627...tzer-box-of-50

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212...oint-box-of-50

Lost Sheep · May 13, 2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wncchester

First, no weapon cares where the bullet nose hangs in space,

I have always understood that, whether there is a length of empty chamber in front of the bullet, "freebore" in the barrel, the bullet just contacts (kisses) the rifling or jams hard against it can make a great deal of difference, and usually does.

Sorry to disagree with you, but I must differ.

Lost Sheep

Jevyod · May 18, 2012, 08:06 AM

Just an update; I went ahead and took it to a gunsmith last eve and he couldn't find anything the matter. He seemed to think it was simply a tight chamber and recommended sending it back to Remington. So it should be going out today. While I was there, he chambered one of my factory rounds and soon found out what I meant when I said it jammed! It jammed so badly, that he had to tap on the bolt to get it out. And come out it did, just the casing and powder all over the place. The bullet stayed in the barrel. So am eager to see what Remington says about it.

243winxb · May 18, 2012, 08:21 AM

What is the exact brand, bullet style, number of the "factory" ammo? Was it purchased at a gunshow or sporting goods store?

Jevyod · May 18, 2012, 10:05 AM

The worst were Winchester 140g and 150g Ballistic Silvertips purchased at Dicks. I also bought some Federal 160g and some Remington 150g. I dont remember exactly where I bought those but I know they were local sporting goods stores. I never buy ammo at Wal Mart.All of the above caused some issues when chambering like having to force the bolt closed.

wncchester · May 18, 2012, 09:03 PM

I said: "First, no weapon cares where the bullet nose hangs in space, all that matters is the jump before the bullet hits the rifling."

You said: "Sorry to disagree with you, but I must differ."

Facts are facts; disagree as you like, I don't mind.

May 10, 2012, 08:54 AM	#1
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	Factory ammo too long? So here's the deal; am working on starting my 1st reloads ( 7mm rem mag ) and i ran into something I thought seemed odd. I was making a dummy round to see where to seat my bullets. I was using the method of using a marker to scribble out rifling and seat a bit deeper till I had just a hint and then backed off another half turn. I ended up with an oal of 3.143. That seemed to my inexperience like a big difference from the manual's 3.290. So that got me thinking about the factory ammo I had been shooting. I remembered that sometimes i had to force the bolt closed. So i got one of those and tried it out and sure enough, i had some serious rifling marks. So would that create a higher pressure? I always thought it had a pretty serrious recoil. I also found one that I had fired, and there was a slight flattening of the primer. So now I have several questions; does my gun just not like factory ammo? Is it abnormal to need to shorten the length so much? Is my gun just "weird"? And i really do not like the way it looks with the bullets seated so far in the casing. Can I trim the casing shorter than the "trim to" length? I am open for education on this issue cause am still learning lots! Ps. Am shooting a Remington 700

May 10, 2012, 09:33 AM	#3
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I'd have a 'smith check it for headspace and see if it doesn't need finish reaming. A factory round shouldn't jam into the rifling. Trimming the brass won't help that. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 11, 2012, 07:43 AM	#6
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	7mm Rem Mag A factory round shouldn't jam into the rifling. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...n%20Magnum.pdf Contact Remington- http://www.remington.com/pages/our-c...pany-info.aspx Last edited by 243winxb; May 11, 2012 at 08:09 AM.

May 10, 2012, 09:27 AM	#2
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Jev, we can understand your question but OAL is much simplier than you have been led to believe. First, no weapon cares where the bullet nose hangs in space, all that matters is the jump before the bullet hits the rifling. Seating long in rifles can jam the lands and that does increase start pressure without any real increase in speed so we need to avoid that. Seating short insures a bit of bullet free run before hitting the rifling and that reduces peak pressure and, usually, speed - but not much. It's rare for factory ammo to contact the lands in a factory chamber and that's not what most of us would want but it's likely safe to use. Next, load book OAL is simply what the book team used to develop the listed data, it's not a 'rule' for the rest of us any more than their powder charges are. It matters not what someone else does, IF we're going to custom make our ammo to work best in our rigs we need to experiment with both charges and seating to find what works best for us. Back when I started reloading very little loading data included even a suggestion for OAL, we just set it as we wanted according to our bullet, chamber and magazine and then developed our charge. We lived.

May 10, 2012, 10:29 AM	#4
10 Spot Terminator Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2008 Location: Central Oregon Posts: 348	Hi Jev, Different bullets have different shapes to them with the point where the diameter of the bullet equals the bore diameter in your weapon being called the ogive. This will dictate the maximum seating depth allowed on any particular rifle cartridge. There are tools available from Hornady to measure this very thing and and the differences between similar bullets of the same weight by different manufacturers can be quite different. Seating shorter is not abnormal based on bullet selection and longer can get to be an issue if the length exceeds the magazine length or if there is an insufficient amount of the bullet base left seated in the catrige case neck . Many match shooters have their sweetheart loads set so long as to only allow hand feeding them one at a time . Being able to measure this prior to building your loads can come in very handy when picking a bullet that best compliments the amount of setback needed to fit the magazine, be seated well enough into the case and get the bullet jump to the lands ( rifling ) into a workable range as the freebore and or some throat errosion on well used firearms will be different. Hope this helps and if you need more insight here feel free to PM me. 10 Spot

May 11, 2012, 06:12 AM	#5
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	Thanks for the info guys! That helps clear some things up. So much to learn yet.

May 11, 2012, 07:47 AM	#7
flyguy958 Senior Member Join Date: June 27, 2009 Location: SC Posts: 200	OAL is not the best way to measure seating depth. I found this out using Nosler Partition 180 grain bullets. I failed to notice they have two different designs for the same bullet. OAL of these are totally different. Below are links to the two. See the difference in OAL of the bullet. I now test each new bullet seating depth in the rifle before I start loading. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/627...tzer-box-of-50 http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212...oint-box-of-50

May 18, 2012, 08:06 AM	#9
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	Just an update; I went ahead and took it to a gunsmith last eve and he couldn't find anything the matter. He seemed to think it was simply a tight chamber and recommended sending it back to Remington. So it should be going out today. While I was there, he chambered one of my factory rounds and soon found out what I meant when I said it jammed! It jammed so badly, that he had to tap on the bolt to get it out. And come out it did, just the casing and powder all over the place. The bullet stayed in the barrel. So am eager to see what Remington says about it.

May 18, 2012, 08:21 AM	#10
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	What is the exact brand, bullet style, number of the "factory" ammo? Was it purchased at a gunshow or sporting goods store?

May 18, 2012, 10:05 AM	#11
Jevyod Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2012 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 172	The worst were Winchester 140g and 150g Ballistic Silvertips purchased at Dicks. I also bought some Federal 160g and some Remington 150g. I dont remember exactly where I bought those but I know they were local sporting goods stores. I never buy ammo at Wal Mart.All of the above caused some issues when chambering like having to force the bolt closed.

May 18, 2012, 09:03 PM	#12
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	I said: "First, no weapon cares where the bullet nose hangs in space, all that matters is the jump before the bullet hits the rifling." You said: "Sorry to disagree with you, but I must differ." Facts are facts; disagree as you like, I don't mind.