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April 28, 2008, 01:09 AM | #26 | |
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April 28, 2008, 02:24 PM | #27 |
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imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
The engineers at Ruger apparently thought enough of the P3At to copy it, without so much as a 'by your leave' to Keltec.
I have 4 Keltecs right now. My P3AT is pretty boring in it's reliability. I'll probably buy a Ruger when things settle out a bit, just because I like pocket guns and I need to keep my Gun-of-the-month membership active |
April 28, 2008, 03:06 PM | #28 |
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Kel tec 380s, one left $279 delivered or offers, NIB of course
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June 18, 2008, 01:01 PM | #29 |
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Ruger stole Kel-Tec's design
The insides of the Ruger are an exact copy of the Kel-Tec. The new Ruger LCP has the old Kel-Tec inner-slide design, but copies new Kel-Tec .380 in almost every way.
I own two Kel-Tec's. I got one of the early .32s (what Ruger's slide is based off of) and one of the .380s when they came out. Both have been great guns. I looked carefully at the pictures of the new LCP's insides. They're exact copies of my Kel-Tec's. I called Kel-Tec to see if they had a licensing with Ruger. They said nope; Ruger just stole their design. They said their lawyers are seeing what they can do under the copyright laws. They said that it's pretty bad when a large company does this to a small company. I have four Rugers, but I won't ever buy anymore. They're thieves. |
June 18, 2008, 01:39 PM | #30 |
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I own both............save youor money and buy the hard chrome Kel-Tec
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June 18, 2008, 02:00 PM | #31 |
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If Kel-Tec built a quality product, I would still have my P3AT and I would not have been interested in the LCP.
Who's fault is it that they didn't patent their design? Not Rugers. Ruger saw an opportunity to build a quality version of a design that, in my view and many others, was poorly executed. The system provides manufacturers a method for protecting their designs. If a company doesn't take that step and someone exploits their lack of action, they have no one to blame other than themselves. |
June 19, 2008, 02:11 AM | #32 | |
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I don't, so the LCP is on my fairly short list, but I'm patient, and will make do with my 638 airweight for now. |
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June 19, 2008, 02:43 AM | #33 |
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According to some folks in the thread in this forum about the Crimson Trace for the LCP, these small guns are only effective for a couple of feet, and that you literally have to shove the gun into your opponent in order to hit them.
Do you really want to rely on a weapon that is so highly inaccurate that it can only be used at the most extreme close range?? Some people are saying that it is literally worthless beyond your arm's length. See: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=298763 Now I personally don't agree with this, but some folks do feel this way about such handguns. So do you really want to carry either of these guns as your only handgun, if it is so very limited to only being a last ditched defense? . |
June 19, 2008, 06:38 AM | #34 |
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>>So do you really want to carry either of these guns as your only handgun<<
Not really, but sometimes it's the only alternative. |
June 19, 2008, 03:12 PM | #35 |
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Both are more accurate than arms lenght for petes sake.
And yes, sometimes it is all I have. I'll take it. Beats spitting on em. |
June 19, 2008, 03:57 PM | #36 | |
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The accuracy of a weapon is based on a two main things. 1. It's intrinsic accuracy. 2. How well you can shoot it. As far as the first one is concerned I'd say 99.99% of handguns are plenty accurate enough for the ranges they are designed to be used. As far as the second one, it is related to how well you can hold the weapon and how well it points and aims for you. Bug guns have short sight radius's and tiny sights. They are designed to be pointed more than aimed. They are also a bit more difficult to retain a consistent grip on when firing. Having said that, there isn't any reason a person shouldn't be able to learn how to effectively hit a target with either a Ruger LCP or Keltec at defensive ranges. The key is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. |
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June 19, 2008, 04:00 PM | #37 |
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The LCP was on my list, but I figured it would be quite some time before I actually found one in person. Found one a week ago today. I've looked at both the Kel-Tecs and the Ruger LCP and I thought the LCP felt a little more solidly built. Could just be the Ruger name but we'll see how it holds up long term.
As a niche, my usual carry is a S&W 637, and the Ruger fills a pocket niche that I was never comfortable with with the Airweight.
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June 19, 2008, 11:38 PM | #38 |
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I carried the AMT backup .380 SAA for many years.
Then the AMT backup DAA Retired now.... Now I carry one of my two Kel-Tec P3-ATs. (CCW Permits of course) Both are reliable if I use the right ammunition. Had to try a few before finding our just which JHP ammo they preferred. Fired them in with ammo that fed reliably just like with my past .380 AMTs, Berettas and S&W. I confess I fire with my second finger on the trigger. Index finger parallel to slide/barrel. With no aiming, only instinct shooting, the gun hits dead-on whatever I'm pointing at out to about ten yards. Beyond that it's a 2' circle at 20yards. My ex-wife could out shoot me with the AMT. |
June 20, 2008, 03:28 AM | #39 | |
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My LCP has fired over 600 rounds with the following HP's, Remington GS, Winchester SXT, Fiocchi HP, Corbon DPX and Speer Gold Dot's. It has also been flawless with any type and shape of ball ammo. So far I have not found an ammo this gun won't shoot. |
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June 20, 2008, 08:11 AM | #40 |
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I own the P3AT and have looked at the Ruger. At the time I bought mine, the Kel-tecs were hard to find and the Rugers were simply an ad but not in the supply pipeline. While I have never shot a Ruger, it does appear to be a little higher quality but I can't offer any real reasons, a more subjective thing I guess. I have been very pleased with my P3AT and have about 350 rounds through it. It took a little while to break in and smooth out the loading. I also polished the feed ramp at 100 rounds but truthfully, I suspect firing another 100 rounds did more good. Very reliable now with no FTFs. I bought it because I wanted a pocket pistol. Given my job and location in the humid south, I'm limited in what I can carry. I have 2 holsters; 1 is a DeSantis (?sp) and the other is a holdster (?sp). I like both but probably will use the latter more. It actually improves the tiny grip situation. I find it quite accurate to 10 yards and I ahve shot a little at longer distances. THe limit of course is the tiny sights. For me, it pointed easily and naturally. I broke a hammer spring, perhaps due to operator error, and their cust srv was great. Sent out the replacement same day at no charge. Overall, I'm impressed with the company and the firearm. I asked the cust srv guy, a real professional by the way, about the LCPand his response was why should KelTec care. They have been running at full capacity for many months, are currently months behind and no reduction in orders. Good luck with your decision; I think either would be a good choice and you have more history with the Kel-Tecs.
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June 20, 2008, 09:17 AM | #41 |
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I Don't like either of them. They are both unpleasant to shoot, and have no room for half of my ring finger and all of my pinky on the grip. I don't really like DAO's either....
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July 6, 2008, 10:29 AM | #42 |
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Bug gun accuracy
I don't own the Ruger, but do have a Kel Tec P3AT. Whoever propagated the myth that these little guns are only accurate at arms length is either an idiot or blind. So far I have killed 2 skunks an armadillo, a oppossum and a snake with mine. Believe me, you don't shoot skunks at arms reach. I practice shooting mine at 15 yards, 8 yards and 3 yards. The sights are not much,but repeatable "pointablity" is. With a little practice you can hit what you are aiming at just by point and shoot. Here where it is hot for lot of the year, this size weapon fits nicely in a front pocket holster. While this type of gun is not "fun" to shoot, if you learn a new grip style, it will not punish the web of your hand and/or slide around in your hand. I found if I grip mine with the two lower fingers ( not the pinky becuase it is not on the gun) and the lower part of the back of my palm, the little beast is not unpleasant to shoot. My favorite round is the South American military rounds there were easy to find a couple of years ago. (They may be still around. I haven't checked lately.) They were supposed to "overpenetrate",( something like 11-13" in ballistic gelatin) and they did not mushroom in tests ( they look like hollow points with lead in the "hollow point" --no jacket on the tip) but they kill small critters fine with a single shot.
The Ruger looks a lot like the Kel Tec, but a little more refined. If reports say they hold up well and aren't jammomatics, I want one, after a bit... |
July 6, 2008, 02:29 PM | #43 |
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>>I Don't like either of them. They are both unpleasant to shoot, and have no room for half of my ring finger and all of my pinky on the grip. I don't really like DAO's either....<<
If you needed one in a pinch, none of those things would matter. |
July 6, 2008, 03:14 PM | #44 |
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I'm surprised people are even buying P-3ATs any more, the LCP is in a different league quality wise.
I had 2 P-3ATs, and I wish I had beaten them both to death with a hammer, my new LCP functions flawlessly and never leaves my pocket. |
July 6, 2008, 03:38 PM | #45 |
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I have a Ruger LCP and a kel tek p32, i like them both, but my LCP is a nicer pistol, and very accurate for its size. the LCP runs about 30$ more than the Keltek P3AT. guntest liked the kel tek better, they had trouble with their LCP. it wanted to jamm on some hollowpoints. I put 300 rounds thru my LCP last weekend and had no problem......didnt clean it at all, and shot both hardball and hollowpoints. LCP for me.... but a cheap uses P#AT would be tempting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggZW_SIaxak
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July 6, 2008, 03:42 PM | #46 |
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I like em both. Honestly, the Keltec is a better shooter, the raspy crappy grip is easier to hold, the trigger is also shorter and lighter.
The Ruger, which I am now chroming, is much prettier I suppose and the action is slicker. Either one as long as works is a good gun. It's not as clear cut, night and day as some make it sound. |
July 6, 2008, 05:44 PM | #47 | |
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Personally, I have a P32 for my BUG. It has been ultra-reliable and I admit, I like it, but everything about it to me has always screamed cheap. My replacement is going to be the LCP, which even if it is no better than the P3AT, it looks better! Even that's enough.
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July 6, 2008, 06:34 PM | #48 |
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My take on the baby .380s
I don't own either one, so I'm neither an expert nor an experienced owner. However, I'm gonna throw my 2-cents' worth in...
I do have a Kel-Tec P32. It was my first semi-auto, and I've put over 2000 rounds through it (lost count long ago). It's been and continues to be a very reliable pistol for me. I've since traded the other two P32s I had. I just couldn't figure out how to aim either those. Also, I much prefer my P32 with the 10-round extended mag. The standard mag makes the grip too short for me to hold safely and reliably. And yes, it's definitely a point-and-shoot gun. That being said....I've held the LCP several times and really like the feel. Ruger has designed some nice ergonomics into a tiny package. None of the ranges have one for rent, so I haven't shot the LCP (yet). Yesterday, the hubby rented a P3AT. All I can say is YUCK!!! For me, it's way too small a package for a .380 platform. Also, the grip was so short, I had trouble even holding onto it when I shot. It was uncomfortable and actually hurt my hand to shoot it. |
July 6, 2008, 06:55 PM | #49 |
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I looked at the LCP a couple of weeks ago
at the gunstore. I used to have a P3AT and liked it a lot. The LCP seems like a higher quality pistol all around and a quick search of the net did not reveal any negative reviews.
I personally think the LCP would be the way to go if I were buying a new one.
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July 7, 2008, 12:00 PM | #50 |
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I am going for the LCP. My cousin works for academy so as soon as they get another one in I will get it at 15% off!
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