The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Handguns: The Semi-automatic Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 28, 2008, 01:09 AM   #26
Playboypenguin
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 27, 2006
Location: Great Pacific Northwest
Posts: 11,515
Quote:
I probably will get one someday, but other things have taken priority.
They are not at the top of my list either. Way to many other things I want and way to many things I already have that fill the same niche.
Playboypenguin is offline  
Old April 28, 2008, 02:24 PM   #27
Rex B
Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2007
Posts: 88
imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

The engineers at Ruger apparently thought enough of the P3At to copy it, without so much as a 'by your leave' to Keltec.

I have 4 Keltecs right now. My P3AT is pretty boring in it's reliability.

I'll probably buy a Ruger when things settle out a bit, just because I like pocket guns and I need to keep my Gun-of-the-month membership active
Rex B is offline  
Old April 28, 2008, 03:06 PM   #28
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,172
Kel tec 380s, one left $279 delivered or offers, NIB of course

WildcallmeAlaska TM
Wildalaska is offline  
Old June 18, 2008, 01:01 PM   #29
shuffletown
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2008
Posts: 1
Ruger stole Kel-Tec's design

The insides of the Ruger are an exact copy of the Kel-Tec. The new Ruger LCP has the old Kel-Tec inner-slide design, but copies new Kel-Tec .380 in almost every way.

I own two Kel-Tec's. I got one of the early .32s (what Ruger's slide is based off of) and one of the .380s when they came out. Both have been great guns.

I looked carefully at the pictures of the new LCP's insides. They're exact copies of my Kel-Tec's.

I called Kel-Tec to see if they had a licensing with Ruger. They said nope; Ruger just stole their design.
They said their lawyers are seeing what they can do under the copyright laws. They said that it's pretty bad when a large company does this to a small company.

I have four Rugers, but I won't ever buy anymore. They're thieves.
shuffletown is offline  
Old June 18, 2008, 01:39 PM   #30
finz50
Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2008
Posts: 87
I own both............save youor money and buy the hard chrome Kel-Tec
finz50 is offline  
Old June 18, 2008, 02:00 PM   #31
Sturmgewehre
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 12, 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 4,212
If Kel-Tec built a quality product, I would still have my P3AT and I would not have been interested in the LCP.

Who's fault is it that they didn't patent their design? Not Rugers. Ruger saw an opportunity to build a quality version of a design that, in my view and many others, was poorly executed.

The system provides manufacturers a method for protecting their designs. If a company doesn't take that step and someone exploits their lack of action, they have no one to blame other than themselves.
__________________
Visit my YouTube channel for reviews, tests and more.
Ex Mea Sententia
Sturmgewehre is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 02:11 AM   #32
Elvishead
Junior member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2007
Location: Las vegas, NV
Posts: 3,397
Quote:
Playboypenguin



way to many things I already have that fill the same niche.

I don't, so the LCP is on my fairly short list, but I'm patient, and will make do with my 638 airweight for now.
Elvishead is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 02:43 AM   #33
LanceOregon
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 10, 2008
Location: Oregon
Posts: 2,774
According to some folks in the thread in this forum about the Crimson Trace for the LCP, these small guns are only effective for a couple of feet, and that you literally have to shove the gun into your opponent in order to hit them.

Do you really want to rely on a weapon that is so highly inaccurate that it can only be used at the most extreme close range?? Some people are saying that it is literally worthless beyond your arm's length.

See:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=298763

Now I personally don't agree with this, but some folks do feel this way about such handguns. So do you really want to carry either of these guns as your only handgun, if it is so very limited to only being a last ditched defense?

.
LanceOregon is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 06:38 AM   #34
RUT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2004
Location: NH, USA
Posts: 812
>>So do you really want to carry either of these guns as your only handgun<<

Not really, but sometimes it's the only alternative.
RUT is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 03:12 PM   #35
Gatorhugger
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2008
Posts: 266
Both are more accurate than arms lenght for petes sake.
And yes, sometimes it is all I have. I'll take it. Beats spitting on em.
Gatorhugger is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 03:57 PM   #36
ImDisaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2008
Posts: 403
Quote:
According to some folks in the thread in this forum about the Crimson Trace for the LCP, these small guns are only effective for a couple of feet, and that you literally have to shove the gun into your opponent in order to hit them.

Do you really want to rely on a weapon that is so highly inaccurate that it can only be used at the most extreme close range?? Some people are saying that it is literally worthless beyond your arm's length.
That is ridiculous. A weapon doesn't automatically become inaccurate as it gets smaller.

The accuracy of a weapon is based on a two main things. 1. It's intrinsic accuracy. 2. How well you can shoot it.

As far as the first one is concerned I'd say 99.99% of handguns are plenty accurate enough for the ranges they are designed to be used.

As far as the second one, it is related to how well you can hold the weapon and how well it points and aims for you. Bug guns have short sight radius's and tiny sights. They are designed to be pointed more than aimed. They are also a bit more difficult to retain a consistent grip on when firing.

Having said that, there isn't any reason a person shouldn't be able to learn how to effectively hit a target with either a Ruger LCP or Keltec at defensive ranges. The key is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.
ImDisaster is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 04:00 PM   #37
Kreyzhorse
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 12, 2006
Location: NKY
Posts: 12,463
The LCP was on my list, but I figured it would be quite some time before I actually found one in person. Found one a week ago today. I've looked at both the Kel-Tecs and the Ruger LCP and I thought the LCP felt a little more solidly built. Could just be the Ruger name but we'll see how it holds up long term.

As a niche, my usual carry is a S&W 637, and the Ruger fills a pocket niche that I was never comfortable with with the Airweight.
__________________
"He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson
Kreyzhorse is offline  
Old June 19, 2008, 11:38 PM   #38
terry81
Junior Member
 
Join Date: June 19, 2008
Posts: 2
I carried the AMT backup .380 SAA for many years.
Then the AMT backup DAA
Retired now....

Now I carry one of my two Kel-Tec P3-ATs.

(CCW Permits of course)

Both are reliable if I use the right ammunition.

Had to try a few before finding our just which JHP ammo they preferred.

Fired them in with ammo that fed reliably just like with my past .380 AMTs, Berettas and S&W.

I confess I fire with my second finger on the trigger.
Index finger parallel to slide/barrel.

With no aiming, only instinct shooting, the gun hits dead-on whatever I'm pointing at out to about ten yards. Beyond that it's a 2' circle at 20yards.


My ex-wife could out shoot me with the AMT.
terry81 is offline  
Old June 20, 2008, 03:28 AM   #39
roman3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2007
Posts: 1,012
Quote:
Both are reliable if I use the right ammunition. Had to try a few before finding our just which JHP ammo they preferred. Fired them in with ammo that fed reliably just like with my past .380 AMTs, Berettas and S&W.

My LCP has fired over 600 rounds with the following HP's, Remington GS, Winchester SXT, Fiocchi HP, Corbon DPX and Speer Gold Dot's.

It has also been flawless with any type and shape of ball ammo.

So far I have not found an ammo this gun won't shoot.
roman3 is offline  
Old June 20, 2008, 08:11 AM   #40
Brad01
Member
 
Join Date: April 3, 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 32
I own the P3AT and have looked at the Ruger. At the time I bought mine, the Kel-tecs were hard to find and the Rugers were simply an ad but not in the supply pipeline. While I have never shot a Ruger, it does appear to be a little higher quality but I can't offer any real reasons, a more subjective thing I guess. I have been very pleased with my P3AT and have about 350 rounds through it. It took a little while to break in and smooth out the loading. I also polished the feed ramp at 100 rounds but truthfully, I suspect firing another 100 rounds did more good. Very reliable now with no FTFs. I bought it because I wanted a pocket pistol. Given my job and location in the humid south, I'm limited in what I can carry. I have 2 holsters; 1 is a DeSantis (?sp) and the other is a holdster (?sp). I like both but probably will use the latter more. It actually improves the tiny grip situation. I find it quite accurate to 10 yards and I ahve shot a little at longer distances. THe limit of course is the tiny sights. For me, it pointed easily and naturally. I broke a hammer spring, perhaps due to operator error, and their cust srv was great. Sent out the replacement same day at no charge. Overall, I'm impressed with the company and the firearm. I asked the cust srv guy, a real professional by the way, about the LCPand his response was why should KelTec care. They have been running at full capacity for many months, are currently months behind and no reduction in orders. Good luck with your decision; I think either would be a good choice and you have more history with the Kel-Tecs.
Brad01 is offline  
Old June 20, 2008, 09:17 AM   #41
P99AS9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 12, 2008
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 612
I Don't like either of them. They are both unpleasant to shoot, and have no room for half of my ring finger and all of my pinky on the grip. I don't really like DAO's either....
P99AS9 is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 10:29 AM   #42
TBAUS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 15, 2002
Location: Central Texas
Posts: 111
Bug gun accuracy

I don't own the Ruger, but do have a Kel Tec P3AT. Whoever propagated the myth that these little guns are only accurate at arms length is either an idiot or blind. So far I have killed 2 skunks an armadillo, a oppossum and a snake with mine. Believe me, you don't shoot skunks at arms reach. I practice shooting mine at 15 yards, 8 yards and 3 yards. The sights are not much,but repeatable "pointablity" is. With a little practice you can hit what you are aiming at just by point and shoot. Here where it is hot for lot of the year, this size weapon fits nicely in a front pocket holster. While this type of gun is not "fun" to shoot, if you learn a new grip style, it will not punish the web of your hand and/or slide around in your hand. I found if I grip mine with the two lower fingers ( not the pinky becuase it is not on the gun) and the lower part of the back of my palm, the little beast is not unpleasant to shoot. My favorite round is the South American military rounds there were easy to find a couple of years ago. (They may be still around. I haven't checked lately.) They were supposed to "overpenetrate",( something like 11-13" in ballistic gelatin) and they did not mushroom in tests ( they look like hollow points with lead in the "hollow point" --no jacket on the tip) but they kill small critters fine with a single shot.
The Ruger looks a lot like the Kel Tec, but a little more refined. If reports say they hold up well and aren't jammomatics, I want one, after a bit...
TBAUS is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 02:29 PM   #43
RUT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 17, 2004
Location: NH, USA
Posts: 812
>>I Don't like either of them. They are both unpleasant to shoot, and have no room for half of my ring finger and all of my pinky on the grip. I don't really like DAO's either....<<

If you needed one in a pinch, none of those things would matter.
RUT is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 03:14 PM   #44
Mike H
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 26, 1999
Posts: 1,159
I'm surprised people are even buying P-3ATs any more, the LCP is in a different league quality wise.

I had 2 P-3ATs, and I wish I had beaten them both to death with a hammer, my new LCP functions flawlessly and never leaves my pocket.
Mike H is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 03:38 PM   #45
postal1911
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 22, 2004
Location: washington
Posts: 263
I have a Ruger LCP and a kel tek p32, i like them both, but my LCP is a nicer pistol, and very accurate for its size. the LCP runs about 30$ more than the Keltek P3AT. guntest liked the kel tek better, they had trouble with their LCP. it wanted to jamm on some hollowpoints. I put 300 rounds thru my LCP last weekend and had no problem......didnt clean it at all, and shot both hardball and hollowpoints. LCP for me.... but a cheap uses P#AT would be tempting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggZW_SIaxak
__________________
front site press
postal1911 is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 03:42 PM   #46
Gatorhugger
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2008
Posts: 266
I like em both. Honestly, the Keltec is a better shooter, the raspy crappy grip is easier to hold, the trigger is also shorter and lighter.
The Ruger, which I am now chroming, is much prettier I suppose and the action is slicker.
Either one as long as works is a good gun. It's not as clear cut, night and day as some make it sound.
Gatorhugger is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 05:44 PM   #47
Stevie-Ray
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2007
Location: The shores of Lake Huron
Posts: 4,783
Quote:
I have four Rugers, but I won't ever buy anymore. They're thieves.
You mean like Springfield Armory? Auto Ordnance? Kimber? Caspian, AMT, STI, Taurus, Dan Wesson, Smith & Wesson, Sigarms, and a host of others that copied the 1911? Thank God we have manufacturers that copy a good design and in fact, improve on it where it's rough. It makes for choices, competition, and price wars. We win in the end.

Personally, I have a P32 for my BUG. It has been ultra-reliable and I admit, I like it, but everything about it to me has always screamed cheap. My replacement is going to be the LCP, which even if it is no better than the P3AT, it looks better! Even that's enough.
__________________
Stevie-Ray
Join the NRA/ILA
I am the weapon; my gun is a tool. It's regrettable that with some people those descriptors are reversed.
Stevie-Ray is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 06:34 PM   #48
Heepstress
Registration in progress
 
Join Date: June 29, 2008
Posts: 99
My take on the baby .380s

I don't own either one, so I'm neither an expert nor an experienced owner. However, I'm gonna throw my 2-cents' worth in...

I do have a Kel-Tec P32. It was my first semi-auto, and I've put over 2000 rounds through it (lost count long ago). It's been and continues to be a very reliable pistol for me. I've since traded the other two P32s I had. I just couldn't figure out how to aim either those. Also, I much prefer my P32 with the 10-round extended mag. The standard mag makes the grip too short for me to hold safely and reliably. And yes, it's definitely a point-and-shoot gun.

That being said....I've held the LCP several times and really like the feel. Ruger has designed some nice ergonomics into a tiny package. None of the ranges have one for rent, so I haven't shot the LCP (yet).

Yesterday, the hubby rented a P3AT. All I can say is YUCK!!! For me, it's way too small a package for a .380 platform. Also, the grip was so short, I had trouble even holding onto it when I shot. It was uncomfortable and actually hurt my hand to shoot it.
Heepstress is offline  
Old July 6, 2008, 06:55 PM   #49
nate45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2007
Location: Illinois
Posts: 3,746
I looked at the LCP a couple of weeks ago

at the gunstore. I used to have a P3AT and liked it a lot. The LCP seems like a higher quality pistol all around and a quick search of the net did not reveal any negative reviews.



I personally think the LCP would be the way to go if I were buying a new one.
__________________
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
(>_<)
nate45 is offline  
Old July 7, 2008, 12:00 PM   #50
krose
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 7, 2008
Posts: 2
I am going for the LCP. My cousin works for academy so as soon as they get another one in I will get it at 15% off!
krose is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.07470 seconds with 8 queries