Shiny primer pockets

jag2 · January 18, 2011, 07:22 PM

I load 148 hbwc for a S&W 52 which is challenging to say the least. I picked up
some factory rounds (S&B) at a gunshow just to have something to compare.
As I am decapping them I am noticing that without exception the primer pockets are clean, bright and shiny like they are new. Never seen anything
like it. Anyone have any thoughts on how these stay soot free?

maillemaker · January 18, 2011, 08:59 PM

I picked up some factory rounds (S&B) at a gunshow just to have something to compare.

I assume you mean fired brass? Because if you decapped an unfired factory round I would expect the primer pockets to be clean.

Steve

jag2 · January 18, 2011, 09:04 PM

Yes, and for the record they didn't cycle the action. My reloads were better.

Sid · January 18, 2011, 09:38 PM

I can't understand why you say that loading for this is challenging. The .38 special with 148 grain wadcutter bullet has to be the easiest cartridge to load on this planet. Over the years I have loaded endless thousands of these for my Model 52 as well as several revolvers. The .38 special is a low pressure load and the cases can be reloaded very many times. The most important consideration is not to put too much of a bell on the mouth of the case as this will shorten the life of the brass on this part of the case. Many of the standard pistol powders will produce accurate ammunition. My own favorite has been 231 which burns much cleaner than Bullseye which is also popular.

jepp2 · January 18, 2011, 09:43 PM

I have seen the same on 9mm S&B brass I deprimed. Not sure, but here is my take:

The brass in the primer pocket has a much smoother finish than any other brass. So something about their forming process is different. The primer residue doesn't tend to cling to the polished looking surface as well.

Their primer composition might be different as well. There isn't as much residue as other primers leave behind.

If you haven't primed them yet, the sharp corner tends to make priming more challenging. I run them through a swager (not because of a crimp, but to round the sharp corner). After that they primer much easier.

jag2 · January 19, 2011, 12:18 AM

Sid, I've just done a lot of experimenting with poor results. I was hoping to use
a plated wadcutter, with and without crimp, neither worked very well. I tried
2.8 of Bullseye and 3.5 of 231 which are supposedly the standard loads, still just so so. I was getting poor ignition so I tried Win small pistol magnum primers and that seems to be the best so far. I might also try just a regular
small rifle primer. Also, I think my hammer spring may be a little weak.
Any tips you have will be appreciated. I'm not really complaining, part of the fun of reloading is trying new things. Pumping out 9mm all day isn't all that
challenging.

oneoldsap · January 19, 2011, 12:19 PM

Sid , the model 52 S&W is a semi auto target pistol that shoots it's own .38 Cal. cartridge . Those things are very rare and valuable , and are very accurate , in the right hands . The OP is probably creating his own load data if he's using modern powders .

**Unclenick** · January 19, 2011, 12:49 PM

Oneoldsap,

Actually it's the model 52A that had the proprietary semi-rimless .38 AMU cartridge. Only about 90 were ever made and delivered to the Army Marksmanship Unit. The model 52 is the civilian market version and it is chambered for .38 Special flush-seated wadcutters, only.

Jag2,

If your firing pin strikes are weak, the small rifle primer, being harder than a pistol primer, is likely to cause misfires. Also, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that changing the primer magically increases velocity without increasing pressure. Not so. Hotter primer, higher pressure. You would likely do better, therefore, to use a soft standard small pistol primer like the Federal 100 or 100M (M is for "Match", not "Magnum"), and put a bit more powder in if you want more pressure. That will provide a better fill ratio anyway.

Try seating your primers hard. If you think your firing pin blows are weak, this is often caused by incompletely seated primers. Primers should be seated about 0.004" below flush with the case head. Federal, which is known to be sensitive, says a small primer should be pushed in 0.002" deeper after you feel the anvils touch the bottom of the primer pocket, but the only tool I know of that will give you that measurement is K&M's Markel priming tool with gauge accessory. It's a great priming tool, but it is a one-at-a-time tool. I find it easier just to seat the primers hard and have never had a problem with cracked primer pellets. Indeed, I find velocity SD almost always goes down with hard primer seating.

I suspect the S&B primers are very mild. I believe you can buy them as reloading components in Europe, but I don't recall seeing them here except on S&B's web site. KVB primers from Russia are among the mildest, and they may be closer to the same. You can buy them here as Wolf brand and Tula brand. They have a reputation for being hard to seat, so swaging primer pockets may be necessary with them. I've not tried them myself, but they could be tried for comparison to S&B. Also, check the size of the S&B vents (flash holes). If they are wider than normal, the primers may be DDNP-based non-toxic primers, which are definitely a different mixture.

Sid · January 19, 2011, 10:31 PM

I have had so many problems trying to seat primers in S&B .38 special cases that I have given up on them. I have 500 Remington cases that do not give me any of these problems and I have been using these same cases for nearly 5 years so far. For the most part I have used CCI, Winchester and Remington primers and haven't found a damn bit of difference among them. Federal primers are more sensitive and Richard Lee warns against using these in the Lee Auto Prime tool and that is the only reason I don't use them.

noylj · January 19, 2011, 11:05 PM

I will share my secrets to reloading for the S&W M52.
Yes, it is as easy to reload as any other cartridge, if you don't mind groups that are, at best, twice as large as factory ammunition.
Buy a box of Winchester or Federal or Remington factory wadcutter ammunition. Shoot no more than 30 of the 50 over a rest at 25 or 50 yards to establish the baseline accuracy of your gun.
Any bullet other than a L-HBWC will be a complete flop. Don't even waste your money.
The best bullet I have found is the Remington 148gn swaged L-HBWC. This bullet is 0.358 at the nose and 0.360-.361 at the skirt. This larger diameter seems to be critical. You DO NOT want to swage the bullet smaller, but, if you do, this bullet will still perform better than any of the others. It is also the cheapest in bulk. Just buy 2000 or more and be done with it.
I have found that UNSIZED brass is the best. Remember, you need to figure out how NOT to swage any bullet down smaller. If you MUST resize, because the case came from a standard pressure load and is over-expanded for your needs, use a Lee FCD (with the crimp parts removed) or a 9mm Mak or .38 Super sizing die.
Any sized brass will shoot groups that are 0.5-1.5" larger than unsized brass.
The force of the slide closing will chamber the case, where the same round is difficult to chamber in a revolver. You will know you are right when the rounds must be pushed the last 0.2" into the barrel to chamber
Next, you want to expand the case ID to about 0.358" or so. I use an old RCBS expander die that really opens the case without opening the case mouth so large it won't enter the seating die. The expansion is such that I can push the bullet into the case with finger pressure so 1/4 to 1/2 of the bullet is in the case before seating. Ordering a custom expander would be a great idea as this RCBS expander is the only expander I have found that works just right. The Lyman M-die I have over bells the case mouth. Over belling is NOT desirable. A case ID of 0.358-359" is the goal.
I seat with a Lee seating die (with a custom seating stem that applies pressure to the bullet outside of the "button" nose). I seat the bullet so it is just below the case mouth.
I crimp the bullet using the Redding Profile Crimp die. I set the crimp using one of the factory rounds I saved.
The only other crimp die I have that comes close to the Redding die for accuracy of the finished rounds is, believe it or not, the Lee FCD.
Keep velocity under 800fps, and 700-750 is better. Initially try Bullseye, 231/HP38, and AA2 powders.
If you do all of this, you might be able to beat the accuracy of the factory rounds.
Now, don't tell anyone else. These are my secrets. YMMV

700cdl · January 20, 2011, 12:58 AM

In almost all detonation issues, the primer isn't being seated deep enough. What happens is the firing pin will push the primer in which absords the energy needed to dent the primer enough to allow the anvil to do its thing. I use an RCBS priming die and just love it. I adjust the depth I want and just prime my cases without having to worry if I gave it enough pressure. It is a one at a time priming process, but very effective in that I have not had one single mis-fire since I started using it in 1985 ish. Do the rounds fire on the second attempt?

January 18, 2011, 07:22 PM	#1
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Shiny primer pockets I load 148 hbwc for a S&W 52 which is challenging to say the least. I picked up some factory rounds (S&B) at a gunshow just to have something to compare. As I am decapping them I am noticing that without exception the primer pockets are clean, bright and shiny like they are new. Never seen anything like it. Anyone have any thoughts on how these stay soot free?

January 19, 2011, 12:49 PM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Oneoldsap, Actually it's the model 52A that had the proprietary semi-rimless .38 AMU cartridge. Only about 90 were ever made and delivered to the Army Marksmanship Unit. The model 52 is the civilian market version and it is chambered for .38 Special flush-seated wadcutters, only. Jag2, If your firing pin strikes are weak, the small rifle primer, being harder than a pistol primer, is likely to cause misfires. Also, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that changing the primer magically increases velocity without increasing pressure. Not so. Hotter primer, higher pressure. You would likely do better, therefore, to use a soft standard small pistol primer like the Federal 100 or 100M (M is for "Match", not "Magnum"), and put a bit more powder in if you want more pressure. That will provide a better fill ratio anyway. Try seating your primers hard. If you think your firing pin blows are weak, this is often caused by incompletely seated primers. Primers should be seated about 0.004" below flush with the case head. Federal, which is known to be sensitive, says a small primer should be pushed in 0.002" deeper after you feel the anvils touch the bottom of the primer pocket, but the only tool I know of that will give you that measurement is K&M's Markel priming tool with gauge accessory. It's a great priming tool, but it is a one-at-a-time tool. I find it easier just to seat the primers hard and have never had a problem with cracked primer pellets. Indeed, I find velocity SD almost always goes down with hard primer seating. I suspect the S&B primers are very mild. I believe you can buy them as reloading components in Europe, but I don't recall seeing them here except on S&B's web site. KVB primers from Russia are among the mildest, and they may be closer to the same. You can buy them here as Wolf brand and Tula brand. They have a reputation for being hard to seat, so swaging primer pockets may be necessary with them. I've not tried them myself, but they could be tried for comparison to S&B. Also, check the size of the S&B vents (flash holes). If they are wider than normal, the primers may be DDNP-based non-toxic primers, which are definitely a different mixture. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 19, 2011, 11:05 PM	#10
noylj Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2007 Location: Between CA and NM Posts: 858	I will share my secrets to reloading for the S&W M52. Yes, it is as easy to reload as any other cartridge, if you don't mind groups that are, at best, twice as large as factory ammunition. Buy a box of Winchester or Federal or Remington factory wadcutter ammunition. Shoot no more than 30 of the 50 over a rest at 25 or 50 yards to establish the baseline accuracy of your gun. Any bullet other than a L-HBWC will be a complete flop. Don't even waste your money. The best bullet I have found is the Remington 148gn swaged L-HBWC. This bullet is 0.358 at the nose and 0.360-.361 at the skirt. This larger diameter seems to be critical. You DO NOT want to swage the bullet smaller, but, if you do, this bullet will still perform better than any of the others. It is also the cheapest in bulk. Just buy 2000 or more and be done with it. I have found that UNSIZED brass is the best. Remember, you need to figure out how NOT to swage any bullet down smaller. If you MUST resize, because the case came from a standard pressure load and is over-expanded for your needs, use a Lee FCD (with the crimp parts removed) or a 9mm Mak or .38 Super sizing die. Any sized brass will shoot groups that are 0.5-1.5" larger than unsized brass. The force of the slide closing will chamber the case, where the same round is difficult to chamber in a revolver. You will know you are right when the rounds must be pushed the last 0.2" into the barrel to chamber Next, you want to expand the case ID to about 0.358" or so. I use an old RCBS expander die that really opens the case without opening the case mouth so large it won't enter the seating die. The expansion is such that I can push the bullet into the case with finger pressure so 1/4 to 1/2 of the bullet is in the case before seating. Ordering a custom expander would be a great idea as this RCBS expander is the only expander I have found that works just right. The Lyman M-die I have over bells the case mouth. Over belling is NOT desirable. A case ID of 0.358-359" is the goal. I seat with a Lee seating die (with a custom seating stem that applies pressure to the bullet outside of the "button" nose). I seat the bullet so it is just below the case mouth. I crimp the bullet using the Redding Profile Crimp die. I set the crimp using one of the factory rounds I saved. The only other crimp die I have that comes close to the Redding die for accuracy of the finished rounds is, believe it or not, the Lee FCD. Keep velocity under 800fps, and 700-750 is better. Initially try Bullseye, 231/HP38, and AA2 powders. If you do all of this, you might be able to beat the accuracy of the factory rounds. Now, don't tell anyone else. These are my secrets. YMMV Last edited by noylj; January 19, 2011 at 11:12 PM.

January 18, 2011, 08:59 PM	#2
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I picked up some factory rounds (S&B) at a gunshow just to have something to compare. I assume you mean fired brass? Because if you decapped an unfired factory round I would expect the primer pockets to be clean. Steve

January 18, 2011, 09:04 PM	#3
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Yes, and for the record they didn't cycle the action. My reloads were better.

January 18, 2011, 09:38 PM	#4
Sid Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2009 Posts: 362	I can't understand why you say that loading for this is challenging. The .38 special with 148 grain wadcutter bullet has to be the easiest cartridge to load on this planet. Over the years I have loaded endless thousands of these for my Model 52 as well as several revolvers. The .38 special is a low pressure load and the cases can be reloaded very many times. The most important consideration is not to put too much of a bell on the mouth of the case as this will shorten the life of the brass on this part of the case. Many of the standard pistol powders will produce accurate ammunition. My own favorite has been 231 which burns much cleaner than Bullseye which is also popular.

January 18, 2011, 09:43 PM	#5
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	I have seen the same on 9mm S&B brass I deprimed. Not sure, but here is my take: The brass in the primer pocket has a much smoother finish than any other brass. So something about their forming process is different. The primer residue doesn't tend to cling to the polished looking surface as well. Their primer composition might be different as well. There isn't as much residue as other primers leave behind. If you haven't primed them yet, the sharp corner tends to make priming more challenging. I run them through a swager (not because of a crimp, but to round the sharp corner). After that they primer much easier.

January 19, 2011, 12:18 AM	#6
jag2 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2009 Location: dallas Posts: 773	Sid, I've just done a lot of experimenting with poor results. I was hoping to use a plated wadcutter, with and without crimp, neither worked very well. I tried 2.8 of Bullseye and 3.5 of 231 which are supposedly the standard loads, still just so so. I was getting poor ignition so I tried Win small pistol magnum primers and that seems to be the best so far. I might also try just a regular small rifle primer. Also, I think my hammer spring may be a little weak. Any tips you have will be appreciated. I'm not really complaining, part of the fun of reloading is trying new things. Pumping out 9mm all day isn't all that challenging.

January 19, 2011, 12:19 PM	#7
oneoldsap Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2009 Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont Posts: 1,602	Sid , the model 52 S&W is a semi auto target pistol that shoots it's own .38 Cal. cartridge . Those things are very rare and valuable , and are very accurate , in the right hands . The OP is probably creating his own load data if he's using modern powders .

January 19, 2011, 10:31 PM	#9
Sid Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2009 Posts: 362	I have had so many problems trying to seat primers in S&B .38 special cases that I have given up on them. I have 500 Remington cases that do not give me any of these problems and I have been using these same cases for nearly 5 years so far. For the most part I have used CCI, Winchester and Remington primers and haven't found a damn bit of difference among them. Federal primers are more sensitive and Richard Lee warns against using these in the Lee Auto Prime tool and that is the only reason I don't use them.

January 20, 2011, 12:58 AM	#11
700cdl Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2010 Posts: 216	In almost all detonation issues, the primer isn't being seated deep enough. What happens is the firing pin will push the primer in which absords the energy needed to dent the primer enough to allow the anvil to do its thing. I use an RCBS priming die and just love it. I adjust the depth I want and just prime my cases without having to worry if I gave it enough pressure. It is a one at a time priming process, but very effective in that I have not had one single mis-fire since I started using it in 1985 ish. Do the rounds fire on the second attempt?