Talked with Lee Reloading about neck tension/crimp die - Page 3

Bart B. · June 24, 2012, 06:15 PM

Sierra Bullets tried the Lee crimp thing and in every test, even with the slightest crimp, accuracy got worse. And yes, Sierra followed Lee's instructions to the letter and punctuation mark. Sierra told Lee about this and all hell broke loose. I think Lee finally agreed to tell folks not to use their crimp die with Sierras' bullets.

Slamfire's comments about competitors not using Lee's crimp die is reality. The issue is, most folks don't shoot well enough, load ammo nor test properly to see the accuracy degradation the Lee crimp die causes. That said, if folks get best accuracy in their tests by crimping non-cannelured bullets, by all means do so.

Years ago, military .30-06 match ammo using the circa 1920's 172-gr. FMJBT cannelured machine gun bullet was tested at the suggestion by Col. Hatcher or Whelen that canneluring and crimping bullets hurt accuracy. Several thousands or test shots later, the arsenals quit crimping match ammo and no longer cannelured that bullet. Even rolling the cannelure in the otherwise good bullet hurt accuracy when they weren't crimped. Accuracy improved by about 30 percent.

FrankenMauser · June 24, 2012, 06:17 PM

Quote:

My point is simply that for most people a FCD will help, or at least wont hurt.

And if it "won't hurt"... that's means it isn't helping, either. And if it isn't helping, why should I waste my time?

This thread is just a giant micturation match between FCD lovers and FCD haters.

Neither side is willing to listen to the other's arguments, so the whole thing might as well just be shut down.

Me? I think FCDs are one of the stupidest "reloading aids" a handloader can waste their money on. The pistol version is a band-aid for bad reloading practices (and often makes things worse), and the rifle version provides no real benefit to quality ammunition. If you do benefit from the rifle FCD, something else is wrong with your components, dies, or procedures. Find out what the FCD is compensating for, and you'll be far better off than wasting your time by running your ammunition through a "magic" crimp die...

Striker1 · June 24, 2012, 06:43 PM

Is it true a Lee Pistol Seating die will also crimp?

dacaur · June 24, 2012, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Neither side is willing to listen to the other's arguments, so the whole thing might as well just be shut down.

The argument on one side is actual testimonials on how they help.

The argument on the other side is that top shooters dont crimp....

Hmmmm.....

If the argument was made that they had tried it and it gave poor results, thats one thing.... put another way,

The argument on one side is based on first hand experience...

The argument on the other side is based on hearsay...

I am still waiting for someone to post some actual test results showing that FCD's hurt accuracy, wehave had plenty that show it helps..... (and no, anything that stars with "I heard X company..." doesnt count(

Bart B. · June 24, 2012, 08:17 PM

dacaur comments;

Quote:

I am still waiting for someone to post some actual test results showing that FCD's hurt accuracy

I made some tests with some .308 Win. cases for what force was needed to push the bullet out. Cases not crimped with the FCD had an average 19 pound release force with a 3 pound spread. When the FCD was used, average release force was 24 pounds with a 6 pound spread. Which verified several comments that crimping bullets introduces another variable in reloaded ammo.

In the same test, bullet runout was compared with the two techniques. The FCD increased bullet runout about .001".

tpcollins · June 24, 2012, 09:38 PM

As the OP of this thread I probably didn't explain my reasoning for wanting to use the FCD. I reload for .204 and .243 and do not crimp since they are both bolt actions. But the slamming shut of the carrage on my AR15 gives me pause and whether other people crimp for their AR is irrelevant - it's something that gives me peace of mind on my bullets staying put in the case.

If it does not improve accuracy or even hurts it by just a little, that's fine. I just don't want to have the possibilty of a surprise someday that could have been avoided. I FL sized and prepped my brass today but I won't get a chance to load some rounds and play with the FCD until the end of the week. Then it'll be off to the range!

Striker1 · June 24, 2012, 09:49 PM

Hope you'll let us know how it works out for you.

Bart B. · June 25, 2012, 02:35 AM

TPCollins, folks using AR-15 type actions in their match rifles don't crimp case mouths into bullets for reliability. Reliability in feeding those semiautos is the same as M1 and M14 rifles with much heavier bullets; works just fine. No need to crimp.

steve4102 · June 25, 2012, 10:04 PM

Quote:

The argument on one side is actual testimonials on how they help.

The argument on the other side is that top shooters dont crimp....

Hmmmm.....

If the argument was made that they had tried it and it gave poor results, thats one thing.... put another way,

The argument on one side is based on first hand experience...

The argument on the other side is based on hearsay...

Well Said. Those that use the LFCD share their experience, both good and bad. Those that do not use or have never seen a LFCD basically have nothing of substance to contribute. Then of course there are some that have used the LFCD and misused it to the point of complete bullet deformation then blame the die.

FrankenMauser · June 25, 2012, 11:10 PM

Hearsay.... yea...

Just because we don't provide information, doesn't mean we don't have any.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And, every rifle and hand load performs differently.

I guess when I tested FCDs for .270 Win and .30-06, my targets didn't actually provide any data. They must have poked holes in themselves, based on gossip they heard.
You know... the targets heard from this other target that his sister's target knows a target that once saw another target get shot with FCD-crimped ammo and thought FCDs were bad.

Yep, the targets are sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw the targets pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

Brian Pfleuger · June 25, 2012, 11:19 PM

The OP has made his choice and I'd say all opinions have been... adequately... shared.

June 24, 2012, 09:38 PM	#56
tpcollins Senior Member Join Date: February 18, 2009 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 558	As the OP of this thread I probably didn't explain my reasoning for wanting to use the FCD. I reload for .204 and .243 and do not crimp since they are both bolt actions. But the slamming shut of the carrage on my AR15 gives me pause and whether other people crimp for their AR is irrelevant - it's something that gives me peace of mind on my bullets staying put in the case. If it does not improve accuracy or even hurts it by just a little, that's fine. I just don't want to have the possibilty of a surprise someday that could have been avoided. I FL sized and prepped my brass today but I won't get a chance to load some rounds and play with the FCD until the end of the week. Then it'll be off to the range! __________________ What direction did that last shot at Kennedy come from?

June 25, 2012, 11:10 PM	#60
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Hearsay.... yea... Just because we don't provide information, doesn't mean we don't have any. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. And, every rifle and hand load performs differently. I guess when I tested FCDs for .270 Win and .30-06, my targets didn't actually provide any data. They must have poked holes in themselves, based on gossip they heard. You know... the targets heard from this other target that his sister's target knows a target that once saw another target get shot with FCD-crimped ammo and thought FCDs were bad. Yep, the targets are sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw the targets pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

June 25, 2012, 11:19 PM	#61
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	The OP has made his choice and I'd say all opinions have been... adequately... shared. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 24, 2012, 06:15 PM	#51
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Sierra Bullets tried the Lee crimp thing and in every test, even with the slightest crimp, accuracy got worse. And yes, Sierra followed Lee's instructions to the letter and punctuation mark. Sierra told Lee about this and all hell broke loose. I think Lee finally agreed to tell folks not to use their crimp die with Sierras' bullets. Slamfire's comments about competitors not using Lee's crimp die is reality. The issue is, most folks don't shoot well enough, load ammo nor test properly to see the accuracy degradation the Lee crimp die causes. That said, if folks get best accuracy in their tests by crimping non-cannelured bullets, by all means do so. Years ago, military .30-06 match ammo using the circa 1920's 172-gr. FMJBT cannelured machine gun bullet was tested at the suggestion by Col. Hatcher or Whelen that canneluring and crimping bullets hurt accuracy. Several thousands or test shots later, the arsenals quit crimping match ammo and no longer cannelured that bullet. Even rolling the cannelure in the otherwise good bullet hurt accuracy when they weren't crimped. Accuracy improved by about 30 percent.

June 24, 2012, 06:43 PM	#53
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Is it true a Lee Pistol Seating die will also crimp?

June 24, 2012, 09:49 PM	#57
Striker1 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Location: TX Posts: 710	Hope you'll let us know how it works out for you.

June 25, 2012, 02:35 AM	#58
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	TPCollins, folks using AR-15 type actions in their match rifles don't crimp case mouths into bullets for reliability. Reliability in feeding those semiautos is the same as M1 and M14 rifles with much heavier bullets; works just fine. No need to crimp.