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August 20, 2010, 09:28 AM | #1 |
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Buying used brass: Once-fired may not mean "fired once"
In doing a search of the internet and survey of pricing among various used brass vendors, all coming up under "once-fired", I get it that the term "once-fired" has no real integrity unless explicitly stated as such. It seems like some consumer protection action is needed in the used brass market, because it becomes very difficult to compare value and be sure of what one will get.
Let's review...the only way to have truly once-fired brass is from a range that never uses reloads, i.e. always uses new ammo. That is likely to be an exclusively LEO range or more likely a military range. If military, there could be issues with crimped primer pockets and heavier brass. Why do we care?...because brass is valued based on how many times it can be recylcled on average. Some brass is deprimed, some cleaned, some polished, and some with reamed primer pockets. That obviously can affect the price, so a closer look would be called for before concluding too much from the prices shown. I don't have any particular conclusions except to say at this point which vendors give me the best feeling about buying from them. There were some that I didn't include because they didn't appear to have any in stock of the 9mm I was using as my search at the time. Price shown is per 1000
It looks to me like the genuine once-fired stuff is in the $45 range. The anomaly of rvow.com at 15 for what looks like the real thing certainly deserves attention. What I think is needed is some regulation that brass cannot be referred to as "once-fired" unless meeting some basic criteria, recognizing that any absolute guarantee would not be very practical. Obviously, mixed commercial range brass is definitely not the same thing, and no one would have a clue how many times a case had been used. A few vendors appear to have some integrity in this regard, but I am sure they are all struggling to compete in what is a very unfair market. As a consumer, it is some real effort knowing where to start and get the real thing for a fair price. |
August 20, 2010, 09:32 AM | #2 | |
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August 20, 2010, 09:52 AM | #3 |
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1. 9mm brass will likely get lost before it wears out so... who cares how many times it's been fired? (rifle brass is another story)
2. Buying brass is repulsive to me. I just pick it up. 9mm is everywhere. I end up dumping more 9mm brass in the recycler than I load since it's too much work to process it all. 3. If I need brass, I'll buy factory ammo and shoot it to get the brass. I would never support the used brass market. And if I have extra brass that someone needs, I give it away. |
August 20, 2010, 09:59 AM | #4 |
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The vast bulk of used brass is military in a military caliber. so it is once-fired. Civilian sources are mixed and require sorting and there is usually no way to know how many times it has been fired by looking at it. That makes regulation futile, as the regulators couldn't tell, either. Not to mention, the cost of regulation would likely make used brass more expensive than new.
Keep in mind that you are trying to save money by recycling scrap. It is rare for scrap to be perfect. You need to inspect it. That's the price of the savings. You spend your money or you spend your labor. There is no free lunch. I suppose if you really had your panties in a bunch, and could somehow prove, beyond subjective suspicion, that you got brass that had undergone multiple reloadings, you could sue for false advertising based on the "once-fired" claim. Maybe you could get them to change that to "mostly once-fired brass"? Given the size of NATO chambers in military guns, plus the hard extraction, the stretch at first firing can be more than several firings in a civilian chamber produces. In rifle brass, use an unfolded paper clip with bent tip to feel for a pressure ring. If you can feel a clearly defined one, that piece of brass is already a head separation waiting to happen, regardless of whether it is once, twice, thrice fired, or more. The other main difference is that multiple resizings harden mouths and necks. Figure to anneal any rifle brass you are uncertain of. I don't know of anyone bothering to do that with pistol brass. It's been too cheap not to simply replace it in the past (though the way things are going, that may not continue to be the case). Again, you pay your money or you pay with extra labor.
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August 20, 2010, 10:04 AM | #5 |
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Since when is "false advertising" okay? It depends whose ox is gored, I guess.
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August 20, 2010, 10:11 AM | #6 |
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False advertising is not ok but this is a matter of just being realistic.
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August 20, 2010, 10:16 AM | #7 |
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If the cases came from a private LEO or military range, I would like to know that. It tells me the likelihood of the brass being good quality and used only once so far. In the case of 9mm, I would know that I would not be overworking primer pockets to ream them all.
It is probably best not to get lost in the trees with the topic of 9mm. The subject applies to all calibers, and the vendors carry most of them. People do buy used brass, at least on occasion, so if one cannot relate to that, perhaps the person has nothing productive to add here. |
August 20, 2010, 12:29 PM | #8 |
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I do know that I quit buying over the forums. The last three times I have bought 1x fired brass from an individual it was plainly obvious that they had been reloaded at least once and in many cases several times.
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August 20, 2010, 03:34 PM | #9 |
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What I think is needed is some regulation ....
The present administration is trying to regulate you right out of existence. Regulation ... we don't got no stinking regulation ... we don't need no stinking regulation ... and then the shooting started.
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August 20, 2010, 04:05 PM | #10 |
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"Regulation" can be a law against false advertising or even a boycott of some business that blatantly abuses the term "once-fired". Gun people don't need to get there powder wet arguing about government. The only right way to do it is legally, and that may mean legislation. We can't just pick the laws we like or that serve our purposes. Simply having a forum with a white list or blacklist for purchasing used brass is a potentially effective way of "regulating".
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August 20, 2010, 05:16 PM | #11 | |
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You'd have to show me where I said false advertising was OK? I simply pointed out you need some means to prove they are advertising falsely, either knowingly or negligently. Unfortunately for your case, all you have thus far is technically what is referred to as a gratuitous assertion—speaking of something as fact when it has not been proven to be fact—that they advertise falsely. It's pretty much analogous to your gratuitous implication that I'd suggested false advertising was OK. Every reloader I've ever known is a brass hound who does everything within his power to collect each and every last case he fires (as well as some he didn't, if they're abandoned). Unless there is some other breed of handloader out there that I've never met, the percentage of reloadable cases left at ranges by these persons is a minuscule percentage of the brass the range collects. Some commercial ranges won't allow you to police brass beyond the firing line because they collect and sell it as part of their income stream. Neither I nor any other handloader I know will frequent those ranges using anything but .22 rimfire or aluminum or steel-cased ammo in semi-autos. Thus, even though persons selling "once-fired" brass cannot prove each and every case is only once-fired anymore than you can prove one is not, simple self-interest on the part of handloaders suggests the odds are against much of it being anything else. Regulation in this situation would be an overreaction, IMHO, but you seem to feel otherwise. That's up to you.
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August 20, 2010, 05:33 PM | #12 | |
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August 20, 2010, 06:04 PM | #13 |
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Good luck on rvow as a brass source. Last I heard the guy that ran it had died and it was out of business but their web site was still up.
I had gotten a couple orders from them, and they had good quality stuff. Wish they were still around. |
August 20, 2010, 07:25 PM | #14 |
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I think the term once fired means the seller is absoulty positve the brass has been fired at least one time, To me new brass has never been fired, and once fired brass has been used, maybe 8 or 9 times, we never know, but were sure it been fired at least once no?
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August 20, 2010, 08:46 PM | #15 |
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Only a Liberal would want more regulation.:barf:
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August 20, 2010, 08:59 PM | #16 | |
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August 20, 2010, 09:05 PM | #17 | |
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August 20, 2010, 09:21 PM | #18 |
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those problems all go away when I get new brass from starline
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August 20, 2010, 09:22 PM | #19 | |
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So, you think we need to set up some type of over sight comittee, to regulate brass and determine if it is once fired, twice fired, etc? Yeah, that sounds logical. Come on fella, if you are that concerned about your brass, buy new from Hornady, Remington , Nosler or any other respected manufacturer. Load em up, fire form them and be done with it. I can understand that you want people to be ethical. However, what you want is not realistic.
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August 20, 2010, 11:55 PM | #20 | |
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August 21, 2010, 12:51 AM | #21 | |
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I buy new brass and mark the end of the case with a magic marker after I fire it and tumble it. I try and keep track of how many times I use it by different colored markers. This is probably not even necessary but if it is out of a semi auto and I am at a range it is easier to police the brass and know it is mine. If it out of a revolver that isn't an issue of course. Still, I like to have an idea of how many times I've reloaded cases. |
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August 21, 2010, 01:36 AM | #22 |
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Keep in mind commercial resellers buy brass from many sources, and there's just no way they can look at every single round of brass and determine if it's been fired once or more than once. Even leo and military brass can be reloaded. Two years ago I bought a container full of rifle brass from Ft Riley scrap sales and I was very surprised at the amount of match brass that had been reloaded many times, to the point that many necks were cracked. I guess the match shooters reloaded until it was no good, then turned it in. Do you want to inspect a 55 gallon drum or two of brass to see if it's all once fired, round by round?
If you want guaranteed once-fired brass, be prepared to pay for the examination and processing. I would guess a price of about 25 cents per round would be about right. New brass can be bought for, what??? |
August 21, 2010, 07:23 AM | #23 |
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So...let me see. The sole basis for your conclusion that some brass merchandisers are defrauding customers is that some charge more than others? No? So what is the basis for your claim, exactly? Your feelings? Please explain how you can make sweeping generalizations with no support whatsoever.
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August 21, 2010, 07:55 AM | #24 | |
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What is this adversarial tone and feeding frenzy a number seem to think is appropriate here? Could we please just share ideas about where to buy legitimately once-fired brass and what suppliers to avoid. |
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August 21, 2010, 08:03 AM | #25 | |
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Otherwise, caveat emptor. It seems to me like most everyone is finding their way. I know that this isn't an epidemic that's keeping me up at night. If it's a genuine problem for someone, used brass is not for them. Again, this doesn't seem like a colossal problem when you consider all the sources for factory fresh brass. If factory fresh brass is what allows one to sleep at night, one should not go on the cheap with someone else's unwanted leftovers. Much ado about nothing here, no matter how hard or how often one tries to spin it.
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