Quality on modern US guns

Lawyer Daggit · December 16, 2004, 01:50 AM

Don't interpret this as an Anti American comment - it is not- American's have long been allies of Australians and I don't want to ruffle any patriotic feathers, but it seems to me the quality of US guns seems to have gone to pot over the last few years- this includes offerings from so called custom shops- both a friend and I own Model 7 Custom shop guns mine a MS his a KS) both required work to make them shoot out of the box and had plastic floor plates, same with my Model 70 Featherweight and a friends Savage 110.

Compare this to a 1980'2 .222 Model 7 I have which shot like crazy out of the box and had a metal floor plate.

I recently acquired a CZ carbine- for half the cost of the Model 7 it is twice the quality of firearm.

What do you think.

swingset · December 16, 2004, 06:09 AM

Quote:

What do you think.

I think most of the guns manufactured in the US today are made very well, most of them better than they ever have been.

You can buy a sub-$500 rifle capable of 1/2 MOA out of the box. 20 years ago that was unheard of.

Same with pistols, you can buy some truly great guns cheaply.

Are there ****ty guns being made in the US? Of course. Are some custom makers not making guns as good as others? Undoubtedly....but I still assert most guns made here are better than they have ever been.

johnbt · December 16, 2004, 08:07 AM

I think we're expecting more these days - less than an moa for example. The ones I've bought recently, as well as all the ones I've borrowed or shot at the range, were better than the typical examples I ran across in the late '50s and all through the '60s. It's always been a matter of luck - how the parts were thrown together on the assembly line.

John

FirstFreedom · December 16, 2004, 11:01 AM

It depends on how exactly you define quality, but I think that you're right in general, that guns are being made with cheaper and cheaper parts, BUT not just american made; rather worldwide. You are continually seeing plastic parts creep in nowadays that used to be aluminum. My RWS/Diana (german made) airgun that I got last year has a plastic trigger, instead of aluminum - all my prior RWSs had had aluminum triggers. Plastic floorplates and trigger guards and sights and guide rods abound now, not too mention all the MIM parts. I just saw a Daisy red ryder BB gun in the store, in a Christmas display, and the whole damned LEVER was plastic - I'm sorry, but there ain't no way that that is going to stand up to a kid's hard use as well as a good aluminum - it's gonna break, and a bunch of kids are going to be forced to beg mommy and daddy to get them another one. I don't like it - no, I don't like it one bit.

But, OTOH, as pointed out, the guns FUNCTION well, for a good PRICE, due to worldwide competition and cheap overseas labor. But they ain't gonna last as long between parts breakages/replacements.

Ohio Annie · December 16, 2004, 11:08 AM

I got a new Henry .22. The fit and finish are superb

and it shoots into an inch at 50 yards. Excellent rifle.

blackdog2000 · December 16, 2004, 11:35 AM

Personally, I won't touch a US bolt gun anymore. The current offering seem to
have their lawyers and accountants in mind more than the customer. Recently I was looking for a deer rifle for the wife and pretty much had set on a low end Remington 700 until a buddy showed me his Tikka. The Remington came with a spray on finish, cheaper synthetic stock, a 9lb trigger pull, scope base holes that need to be realigned, a more than likely a recrown job and action job. The $60 more expensive Tikka came with walnut stock, dark bluing, adjustable 3.5-1.5lb trigger. Took the gun out of the box, put the scope on and shooting .88 MOA.Tikka also has the slickest action made, i don't even think a custom Remington can come close with at least couple hundred $$ of gunsmith. American gunmakers better wake up to the quality issues or they will be going get run over by foreign made just like the car industry in the 80's.Don't even get me started about current made S&W revolvers.

Handy · December 16, 2004, 12:11 PM

Blackdog,

Not to be alarmist, but your Tikka doesn't fall into this category, does it?

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=156955

FirstFreedom · December 16, 2004, 01:25 PM

he said "dark bluing", so he should be alright. However, that's a sad situation indeed about those Tikkas, since they're otherwise such a fine rifle - this will undoubtedly hurt them tremendously in reputation.

esldude · December 16, 2004, 03:46 PM

I think what is often overlooked is that modern store bought ammo is quite improved over a generation ago. Lots of older rifles that only shot sub-MOA with handloads in the past will do so with off the shelf ammo now. I don't think modern rifles in general are worse, probably a little better in most brands. But the ammo is definitely improved the most.

Handy · December 16, 2004, 05:48 PM

I think machining, casting and forging are much more accurate processes than before. But the human attention, flawed as it is, sometimes produces greatness that is missing in the very uniform, consumerish products of today.

blackdog2000 · December 16, 2004, 06:27 PM

Thanks for the worry, but the questionable barrels are the stainless steel models. Really it like a remington, ruger , S&W or Springfield ever had a KB problem. I think the point is that American gunmakers have taken the attiude, gee how can we make this cheaper and faster so we can get a higher profit line. That why we see spray on finishes, terrible looking wood or cheaper synthetic stocks, and a level of quality generally going down. Then we add the liablity factor of lets ship guns out with a heavy 9 -11lbs trigger so someone who get the trigger lighten then shoots themselves can't sue. Add to that the marketing a new wonder caliber every year so we can convince everyone that you just have to have this new gun . Made in US used to mean quality, but today means marketing hype.

johnbt · December 17, 2004, 02:52 PM

www.cooperfirearms.com

They're not entry-level guns by any stretch of the imagination, but they aren't all that much if you shop around. I'd rather own one $1100 Cooper Classic than 2 or 3 Remchesters. And don't let the list prices scare you off, a Model 57 Custom Classic .22LR that lists for $1895 can be had for a hair less than $1600 if you do a little looking online.

If I managed to get one, anybody can.

John

rbernie · December 17, 2004, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Made in US used to mean quality, but today means marketing hype.

Do you think that the 1964-model Win70's were NOT a product of a 'designed-by-and-for-marketing' environment?

And as to the quality aspects - do you think that the hand-fitting of yesteryear was done because they wanted to? Heck, no. It was done because it was the only way to get a product of some uniform quality into the marketplace. Every manufacturer in any time period was/is constantly looking for ways to do the same job in less time and less materials. That's just the name of the game.

PaulAllen · January 6, 2005, 02:02 PM

About six monthes ago I bought a Winchester 9422 Magnum. The finish was okay but the thing had so much trigger creep I couldn't shoot it accuratly. I would start to squeeze the trigger and it would start to give,- then I would squeeze it a little harder and it would give alitle more...then I would even see the hammer start to move out of my periphial (sp?) vision.... I would squeeze a little harder and it would finally go off. Whew!! Finally...I would think to myself. And it wasn't smooth creep. It was very rough creep. It was pure junk as far as I'm concerned.

So I wnt to the Browning website and checked out the Bl-22. The site said " Trigger,- smooth and crisp without creep." So I traded the Winchester in and had my gun dealer order the Browning. The fit and finish was decent except where the stock met the steel receiver. The stock hadn't been sanded down enough on the left side and was about 1/32 too high. You could easily feel it if you ran your finger over it. It also had trigger creep, but not as bad as the Winchester. In my opinion both guns were junk so I will buy no more new Brownings or Winchesters. I sold the Browning back to the dealer at a loss of 145.00, but I learned my lesson.

LAK · January 7, 2005, 05:31 AM

Levels of QC directly affect general quality - as well as the number of lemons - or those that need some significant attention.

But as long as they have been in the gunmaking business, there is really little excuse for companies like Remington to be turning out anything mediocre anymore. There is absolutely no doubt that they have the knowhow to compete with any of the top riflemakers here or overseas.

December 16, 2004, 01:50 AM	#1
Lawyer Daggit Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 1,181	Quality on modern US guns Don't interpret this as an Anti American comment - it is not- American's have long been allies of Australians and I don't want to ruffle any patriotic feathers, but it seems to me the quality of US guns seems to have gone to pot over the last few years- this includes offerings from so called custom shops- both a friend and I own Model 7 Custom shop guns mine a MS his a KS) both required work to make them shoot out of the box and had plastic floor plates, same with my Model 70 Featherweight and a friends Savage 110. Compare this to a 1980'2 .222 Model 7 I have which shot like crazy out of the box and had a metal floor plate. I recently acquired a CZ carbine- for half the cost of the Model 7 it is twice the quality of firearm. What do you think.

December 16, 2004, 11:08 AM	#5
Ohio Annie Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 351	I love my Henry I got a new Henry .22. The fit and finish are superb and it shoots into an inch at 50 yards. Excellent rifle. __________________ Annie @8-) Maker of fine GSR since 1998

January 6, 2005, 02:02 PM	#14
PaulAllen Junior Member Join Date: January 4, 2005 Posts: 2	Quality Not There.... About six monthes ago I bought a Winchester 9422 Magnum. The finish was okay but the thing had so much trigger creep I couldn't shoot it accuratly. I would start to squeeze the trigger and it would start to give,- then I would squeeze it a little harder and it would give alitle more...then I would even see the hammer start to move out of my periphial (sp?) vision.... I would squeeze a little harder and it would finally go off. Whew!! Finally...I would think to myself. And it wasn't smooth creep. It was very rough creep. It was pure junk as far as I'm concerned. So I wnt to the Browning website and checked out the Bl-22. The site said " Trigger,- smooth and crisp without creep." So I traded the Winchester in and had my gun dealer order the Browning. The fit and finish was decent except where the stock met the steel receiver. The stock hadn't been sanded down enough on the left side and was about 1/32 too high. You could easily feel it if you ran your finger over it. It also had trigger creep, but not as bad as the Winchester. In my opinion both guns were junk so I will buy no more new Brownings or Winchesters. I sold the Browning back to the dealer at a loss of 145.00, but I learned my lesson.

December 16, 2004, 08:07 AM	#3
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	I think we're expecting more these days - less than an moa for example. The ones I've bought recently, as well as all the ones I've borrowed or shot at the range, were better than the typical examples I ran across in the late '50s and all through the '60s. It's always been a matter of luck - how the parts were thrown together on the assembly line. John

December 16, 2004, 11:01 AM	#4
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	It depends on how exactly you define quality, but I think that you're right in general, that guns are being made with cheaper and cheaper parts, BUT not just american made; rather worldwide. You are continually seeing plastic parts creep in nowadays that used to be aluminum. My RWS/Diana (german made) airgun that I got last year has a plastic trigger, instead of aluminum - all my prior RWSs had had aluminum triggers. Plastic floorplates and trigger guards and sights and guide rods abound now, not too mention all the MIM parts. I just saw a Daisy red ryder BB gun in the store, in a Christmas display, and the whole damned LEVER was plastic - I'm sorry, but there ain't no way that that is going to stand up to a kid's hard use as well as a good aluminum - it's gonna break, and a bunch of kids are going to be forced to beg mommy and daddy to get them another one. I don't like it - no, I don't like it one bit. But, OTOH, as pointed out, the guns FUNCTION well, for a good PRICE, due to worldwide competition and cheap overseas labor. But they ain't gonna last as long between parts breakages/replacements.

December 16, 2004, 11:35 AM	#6
blackdog2000 Junior Member Join Date: December 15, 2004 Posts: 4	Personally, I won't touch a US bolt gun anymore. The current offering seem to have their lawyers and accountants in mind more than the customer. Recently I was looking for a deer rifle for the wife and pretty much had set on a low end Remington 700 until a buddy showed me his Tikka. The Remington came with a spray on finish, cheaper synthetic stock, a 9lb trigger pull, scope base holes that need to be realigned, a more than likely a recrown job and action job. The $60 more expensive Tikka came with walnut stock, dark bluing, adjustable 3.5-1.5lb trigger. Took the gun out of the box, put the scope on and shooting .88 MOA.Tikka also has the slickest action made, i don't even think a custom Remington can come close with at least couple hundred $$ of gunsmith. American gunmakers better wake up to the quality issues or they will be going get run over by foreign made just like the car industry in the 80's.Don't even get me started about current made S&W revolvers.

December 16, 2004, 12:11 PM	#7
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Blackdog, Not to be alarmist, but your Tikka doesn't fall into this category, does it? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=156955

December 16, 2004, 01:25 PM	#8
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	he said "dark bluing", so he should be alright. However, that's a sad situation indeed about those Tikkas, since they're otherwise such a fine rifle - this will undoubtedly hurt them tremendously in reputation.

December 16, 2004, 03:46 PM	#9
esldude Senior Member Join Date: August 16, 2004 Posts: 438	I think what is often overlooked is that modern store bought ammo is quite improved over a generation ago. Lots of older rifles that only shot sub-MOA with handloads in the past will do so with off the shelf ammo now. I don't think modern rifles in general are worse, probably a little better in most brands. But the ammo is definitely improved the most.

December 16, 2004, 05:48 PM	#10
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	I think machining, casting and forging are much more accurate processes than before. But the human attention, flawed as it is, sometimes produces greatness that is missing in the very uniform, consumerish products of today.

December 16, 2004, 06:27 PM	#11
blackdog2000 Junior Member Join Date: December 15, 2004 Posts: 4	Thanks for the worry, but the questionable barrels are the stainless steel models. Really it like a remington, ruger , S&W or Springfield ever had a KB problem. I think the point is that American gunmakers have taken the attiude, gee how can we make this cheaper and faster so we can get a higher profit line. That why we see spray on finishes, terrible looking wood or cheaper synthetic stocks, and a level of quality generally going down. Then we add the liablity factor of lets ship guns out with a heavy 9 -11lbs trigger so someone who get the trigger lighten then shoots themselves can't sue. Add to that the marketing a new wonder caliber every year so we can convince everyone that you just have to have this new gun . Made in US used to mean quality, but today means marketing hype.

December 17, 2004, 02:52 PM	#12
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	www.cooperfirearms.com They're not entry-level guns by any stretch of the imagination, but they aren't all that much if you shop around. I'd rather own one $1100 Cooper Classic than 2 or 3 Remchesters. And don't let the list prices scare you off, a Model 57 Custom Classic .22LR that lists for $1895 can be had for a hair less than $1600 if you do a little looking online. If I managed to get one, anybody can. John

January 7, 2005, 05:31 AM	#15
LAK Junior member Join Date: May 14, 2002 Posts: 2,251	Levels of QC directly affect general quality - as well as the number of lemons - or those that need some significant attention. But as long as they have been in the gunmaking business, there is really little excuse for companies like Remington to be turning out anything mediocre anymore. There is absolutely no doubt that they have the knowhow to compete with any of the top riflemakers here or overseas.