Neck runout with redding bushing die

Thor2j · February 7, 2015, 01:37 PM

Hi all,

My Lapua 338 brass comes out of my gun with a neck runout of +/-.001", when I run it through the Redding neck sizing bushing die it comes out at +/-.004". I've tried 2 different bushings, with and without the neck expander ball, with and without mica. Cleaned die completely and nothing changes. I have 3 other redding bushing dies in different calibers and they all make the necks +/-.002". Any suggestions or do u think I have a bad die.

thanks.

P.S. Using RCBS Rockchucker

Bart B. · February 7, 2015, 08:21 PM

That's often normal with neck sizing dies. None of them keep the case body aligned with the case neck. And expander balls are also neck benders.

Redding's full length bushing dies keep the case body better aligned with the case shoulder and neck when sizing down the fired case necks. Fired cases so sized have better neck alignment to the case shoulder and body. Best accuracy with bottleneck cases typically happens when fired case shoulders are set back .002" by the full length sizing die.

They're almost as good as standard full length sizing dies with necks honed out to .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter.

flashhole · February 10, 2015, 06:07 PM

Did you try running the case up into the die before cinching down on the lock ring? I like to let the case align the die before processing a batch of brass.

Bart B. · February 10, 2015, 08:27 PM

The die's threads will align with the die's threads the same way whether it's tightened by its lock ring before a case is pushed into it before or afterwards there's enough clearance between the shell holder and both the case rim and ram socket for it to let the case well center in the die.

Have you actually measured the misalignments of all parts involved?

Or measured any differences between cases sized both ways?

What is the difference in cases with the die set and locked both ways?

flashhole · February 10, 2015, 08:38 PM

Not so. I've seen significant differences in runout just by paying more attention to the technique used to seat the die in the press. Let the system align itself. This is particularly true when loading for a gun that has a tight chamber.

flashhole · February 10, 2015, 08:40 PM

But I will add there is a lot of value to be gained with proper use of a runout gauge.

Bart B. · February 11, 2015, 03:19 PM

Unless one's accurately measured their die position in the press across different setting and locking techniques, they've not proved its misalignemtn alone causes different quality or measurements on loaded rounds.

I tried 3 different die seating methods before locking my dies in RCBS Jr., Partner and Rockchucker presses. Nothing changed how they aligned to the shellholder in the ram below them. My alignment gauge was accurate to .001" and repeatable each time used. At least to anything bigger than aboiut .001".

flashhole · February 11, 2015, 06:52 PM

You don't have to measure anything. You can see the results on the target.

cw308 · February 12, 2015, 09:45 AM

I use the Redding S Type Bushing Dies on a RCBS Ruckchucker also. I'm a Beachrest Shooter 308 cal. I also thought neck sizing was better, now I full length size only, I've been using a O Ring 7/8 under the lock ring, my average runout is .001, give the O ring a try, get them at any hardwear store

F. Guffey · February 12, 2015, 10:04 AM

http://www.redding-reloading.com/ind...s-bushing-dies

Get your money back, Redding claims 'it is self aligning'. As you say, you have four that work as design.

F. Guffey

Bart B. · February 12, 2015, 10:08 AM

I must be weird. I've tried all the popular ways to center and align dies in a press and my on paper results were all the same. Tiny, many-shot groups; statistically the same size.

Therefore, I don't think one needs to fuss with precision alignment of the die to the ram and shellholder's sizing axis.

If you're really fussy about that, you need to get worried that your bolt face perfectly centers on the chamber axis, too. Mine don't by a few to several thousandths. The worst one shoots as accurate as the best one. So my stuff has to be weird, too.

I'm convinced that folks think the case is rigidly held in place aligned with the ram/shellholder axis (or some other axis below the die and/or its threads in the press) when it starts up into the die and no force on earth will move it so it starts into the case crooked or off center and it's sized irregular all the way around it.

F. Guffey · February 12, 2015, 11:20 AM

I read weird stuff on the Internet all the time. I believe most of it comes from members that want to talk but never listen. Then there are those that do not think it can not be done, then there is that constant referral to 'bench resters', DO IT LIKE A BENCH RESTER'. My intentions, install an 03A4 308 Norma mag barrel 03 Springfield, but first, I must check the 03 for accuracy. If it is a good shooter, I go back to looking for an 03 receiver.

And I ask?? It is claimed the sizer ball pulls the neck out of alignment and or the shoulder is pulled causing the case to get longer from the shoulder to the case head. "And I ask how?" How would one determine if that was true?

then there is that part about assuming everything stays straight when sizing. I have deflection gages, I have strain gages and I have tension gages. My tension gages do not measure tension because my gages are not calibrated in 'tensions' My tension and strain gages are marked off in pounds, and no I do not have a conversion for pounds to tensions. I understand interference fit and I understand crush fit, I have nothing that is graduated in tensions.

Deflection, I have deflection gages, some of my deflection gages are marked off in thousandths.

F. Guffey

higgite · February 12, 2015, 12:10 PM

Seems to me that the same forces that would align a not-locked-down die with a case would also align a not-locked-down case with the die. If the die aligns with a case but doesn't happen to be centered in the press threads when the locking ring is tightened, it will either center itself with the press threads anyway or it will tilt slightly because it is off center. I prefer to let the die center itself in the threads, and then let the free floating case align with the die. But that's just me.

Thor, when you say you're getting +/-.004" runout, are you saying that you're getting .008" total runout? That sounds huge for a Redding die, but I'm no expert.

Bart B. · February 12, 2015, 04:55 PM

How much clearance (slop) is there between your case heads' rim, groove and body to the shell holders inside limits at those points when the case is full into the sizing die? Both with the ram and shell holder pressed to its off axis and normal limits.

Does anyone have a press ram and shellholder that grips a case so tight it cannot slide sideways to align it well with a die a bit off axis from it?

**Unclenick** · February 12, 2015, 05:30 PM

It could be the gun's chamber, too. That initial 0.001", if it's consistent and always appears on the same side, may be an indicator of the chamber being reamed at a slant into the bore. Often you can tell by whether or not a fired case, after extracting, will go back into the chamber with finger pressure just as easily after rotating it 180°. If the chamber is a little off-axis, then the case doesn't sit coaxial with the press ram because the head is slightly out of square. That may explain part of the problem.

The rubber o-ring trick allows the die to tilt a little, and not just to slide side to side. I first read about it in a John Feamster article long ago. My suspicion is, since he was an M14 platform service rifle shooter and that rifle commonly produces cases with slightly out-of-square heads, if that o-ring tilt didn't tend to help more with such cases. Just speculation on my part. I didn't find I could measure it helping me a lot with bolt rifle rounds. Nor did the practice of seating part way, rotating the case, then seating a little further, which is also supposed to keep bullets more straight. Getting the Redding Competition Seater Die did more for me than anything else.

Thor2j,

You could also try one of the inexpensive Lee Collet Dies. See if that makes a difference.

243winxb · February 12, 2015, 05:41 PM

I think he got his answer over on THR

higgite · February 12, 2015, 11:39 PM

At least he responded over there. Looks like he abandoned us over here. Hope he's okay.

Clark · February 12, 2015, 11:56 PM

Per my experiments, Redding "S" bushing dies make more eccentricity with more change in diameter.

There are all kinds of guys winning shooting matches with bushing neck dies.
But they are making tiny changes to the brass. They have tight chambers cut with custom non SAAMI reamers.

The big sloppy factory SAAMI necks allow the brass to expand to a large diameter. The bushing must make it small enough to have an interference fit with the bullet.

What I have done is to find the right size with the bushing die, trying different bushings, and then order a full length die with the neck honed out to that same inside diameter as the right bushing. Full length dies with the neck honed out are very good at making the outside of the case neck concentric with the rest of the case, even with big changes in neck size. Bushing dies are not good with big neck changes.

There was a problem with that strategy, in the Redding bushing sizes are "no go", and Forster honed out full length dies are "go". So the system was off by .001". I complained and complained. I don't know if they listened to me, but Forster now offers honing in .0005" increments.

F. Guffey · February 13, 2015, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Does anyone have a press ram and shellholder that grips a case so tight it cannot slide sideways to align it well with a die a bit off axis from it?

To most a shell holder is a shell holder etc.. with one exception. A shell holder is a tool and they are not all alike. I have found advantages and disadvantages to the differences. In the beginning the difference started out as a functional design.

Reminds me of my Rock Chucker presses that do not cam over, the non cam over is a design, again, I use rock Chucker presses on my Piggy Back 11 loaders.

F. Guffey

flashhole · February 13, 2015, 03:25 PM

Does anyone have a press ram and shellholder that grips a case so tight it cannot slide sideways to align it well with a die a bit off axis from it?

I do, and more than one.

F. Guffey · February 14, 2015, 08:01 AM

Quote:

But they are making tiny changes to the brass. They have tight chambers cut with custom non SAAMI reamers.

And they take all the credit, that is until they talk about how much they paid for the rifle. C note types, me. me. me (Mi refers to Me).

And there is never a mention about the effect case resistance to sizing has on the alignment. Then there is the reason there is a difference in shell holders.

F. Guffey

February 7, 2015, 01:37 PM	#1
Thor2j Junior Member Join Date: April 15, 2012 Posts: 6	Neck runout with redding bushing die Hi all, My Lapua 338 brass comes out of my gun with a neck runout of +/-.001", when I run it through the Redding neck sizing bushing die it comes out at +/-.004". I've tried 2 different bushings, with and without the neck expander ball, with and without mica. Cleaned die completely and nothing changes. I have 3 other redding bushing dies in different calibers and they all make the necks +/-.002". Any suggestions or do u think I have a bad die. thanks. P.S. Using RCBS Rockchucker Last edited by Thor2j; February 7, 2015 at 03:40 PM.

February 7, 2015, 08:21 PM	#2
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	That's often normal with neck sizing dies. None of them keep the case body aligned with the case neck. And expander balls are also neck benders. Redding's full length bushing dies keep the case body better aligned with the case shoulder and neck when sizing down the fired case necks. Fired cases so sized have better neck alignment to the case shoulder and body. Best accuracy with bottleneck cases typically happens when fired case shoulders are set back .002" by the full length sizing die. They're almost as good as standard full length sizing dies with necks honed out to .002" smaller than loaded round neck diameter. Last edited by Bart B.; February 7, 2015 at 08:31 PM.

February 10, 2015, 06:07 PM	#3
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Did you try running the case up into the die before cinching down on the lock ring? I like to let the case align the die before processing a batch of brass. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

February 10, 2015, 08:38 PM	#5
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Not so. I've seen significant differences in runout just by paying more attention to the technique used to seat the die in the press. Let the system align itself. This is particularly true when loading for a gun that has a tight chamber. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

February 10, 2015, 08:40 PM	#6
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	But I will add there is a lot of value to be gained with proper use of a runout gauge. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

February 10, 2015, 08:27 PM	#4
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	The die's threads will align with the die's threads the same way whether it's tightened by its lock ring before a case is pushed into it before or afterwards there's enough clearance between the shell holder and both the case rim and ram socket for it to let the case well center in the die. Have you actually measured the misalignments of all parts involved? Or measured any differences between cases sized both ways? What is the difference in cases with the die set and locked both ways?

February 11, 2015, 03:19 PM	#7
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	Unless one's accurately measured their die position in the press across different setting and locking techniques, they've not proved its misalignemtn alone causes different quality or measurements on loaded rounds. I tried 3 different die seating methods before locking my dies in RCBS Jr., Partner and Rockchucker presses. Nothing changed how they aligned to the shellholder in the ram below them. My alignment gauge was accurate to .001" and repeatable each time used. At least to anything bigger than aboiut .001".

February 11, 2015, 06:52 PM	#8
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	You don't have to measure anything. You can see the results on the target. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

February 12, 2015, 09:45 AM	#9
cw308 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2010 Location: Plainview , Long Island NY Posts: 3,863	I use the Redding S Type Bushing Dies on a RCBS Ruckchucker also. I'm a Beachrest Shooter 308 cal. I also thought neck sizing was better, now I full length size only, I've been using a O Ring 7/8 under the lock ring, my average runout is .001, give the O ring a try, get them at any hardwear store

February 12, 2015, 10:04 AM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.redding-reloading.com/ind...s-bushing-dies Get your money back, Redding claims 'it is self aligning'. As you say, you have four that work as design. F. Guffey

February 12, 2015, 10:08 AM	#11
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	I must be weird. I've tried all the popular ways to center and align dies in a press and my on paper results were all the same. Tiny, many-shot groups; statistically the same size. Therefore, I don't think one needs to fuss with precision alignment of the die to the ram and shellholder's sizing axis. If you're really fussy about that, you need to get worried that your bolt face perfectly centers on the chamber axis, too. Mine don't by a few to several thousandths. The worst one shoots as accurate as the best one. So my stuff has to be weird, too. I'm convinced that folks think the case is rigidly held in place aligned with the ram/shellholder axis (or some other axis below the die and/or its threads in the press) when it starts up into the die and no force on earth will move it so it starts into the case crooked or off center and it's sized irregular all the way around it. Last edited by Bart B.; February 12, 2015 at 10:49 AM.

February 12, 2015, 11:20 AM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I read weird stuff on the Internet all the time. I believe most of it comes from members that want to talk but never listen. Then there are those that do not think it can not be done, then there is that constant referral to 'bench resters', DO IT LIKE A BENCH RESTER'. My intentions, install an 03A4 308 Norma mag barrel 03 Springfield, but first, I must check the 03 for accuracy. If it is a good shooter, I go back to looking for an 03 receiver. And I ask?? It is claimed the sizer ball pulls the neck out of alignment and or the shoulder is pulled causing the case to get longer from the shoulder to the case head. "And I ask how?" How would one determine if that was true? then there is that part about assuming everything stays straight when sizing. I have deflection gages, I have strain gages and I have tension gages. My tension gages do not measure tension because my gages are not calibrated in 'tensions' My tension and strain gages are marked off in pounds, and no I do not have a conversion for pounds to tensions. I understand interference fit and I understand crush fit, I have nothing that is graduated in tensions. Deflection, I have deflection gages, some of my deflection gages are marked off in thousandths. F. Guffey

February 12, 2015, 12:10 PM	#13
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	Seems to me that the same forces that would align a not-locked-down die with a case would also align a not-locked-down case with the die. If the die aligns with a case but doesn't happen to be centered in the press threads when the locking ring is tightened, it will either center itself with the press threads anyway or it will tilt slightly because it is off center. I prefer to let the die center itself in the threads, and then let the free floating case align with the die. But that's just me. Thor, when you say you're getting +/-.004" runout, are you saying that you're getting .008" total runout? That sounds huge for a Redding die, but I'm no expert. Last edited by higgite; February 12, 2015 at 12:22 PM.

February 12, 2015, 04:55 PM	#14
Bart B. Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2009 Posts: 8,927	How much clearance (slop) is there between your case heads' rim, groove and body to the shell holders inside limits at those points when the case is full into the sizing die? Both with the ram and shell holder pressed to its off axis and normal limits. Does anyone have a press ram and shellholder that grips a case so tight it cannot slide sideways to align it well with a die a bit off axis from it? Last edited by Bart B.; February 12, 2015 at 10:16 PM.

February 12, 2015, 05:30 PM	#15
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It could be the gun's chamber, too. That initial 0.001", if it's consistent and always appears on the same side, may be an indicator of the chamber being reamed at a slant into the bore. Often you can tell by whether or not a fired case, after extracting, will go back into the chamber with finger pressure just as easily after rotating it 180°. If the chamber is a little off-axis, then the case doesn't sit coaxial with the press ram because the head is slightly out of square. That may explain part of the problem. The rubber o-ring trick allows the die to tilt a little, and not just to slide side to side. I first read about it in a John Feamster article long ago. My suspicion is, since he was an M14 platform service rifle shooter and that rifle commonly produces cases with slightly out-of-square heads, if that o-ring tilt didn't tend to help more with such cases. Just speculation on my part. I didn't find I could measure it helping me a lot with bolt rifle rounds. Nor did the practice of seating part way, rotating the case, then seating a little further, which is also supposed to keep bullets more straight. Getting the Redding Competition Seater Die did more for me than anything else. Thor2j, You could also try one of the inexpensive Lee Collet Dies. See if that makes a difference. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

February 12, 2015, 05:41 PM	#16
243winxb Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2011 Location: USA Posts: 1,730	I think he got his answer over on THR

February 12, 2015, 11:39 PM	#17
higgite Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 2010 Posts: 1,025	At least he responded over there. Looks like he abandoned us over here. Hope he's okay.

February 12, 2015, 11:56 PM	#18
Clark Senior Member Join Date: December 4, 1999 Location: WA, the ever blue state Posts: 4,678	Per my experiments, Redding "S" bushing dies make more eccentricity with more change in diameter. There are all kinds of guys winning shooting matches with bushing neck dies. But they are making tiny changes to the brass. They have tight chambers cut with custom non SAAMI reamers. The big sloppy factory SAAMI necks allow the brass to expand to a large diameter. The bushing must make it small enough to have an interference fit with the bullet. What I have done is to find the right size with the bushing die, trying different bushings, and then order a full length die with the neck honed out to that same inside diameter as the right bushing. Full length dies with the neck honed out are very good at making the outside of the case neck concentric with the rest of the case, even with big changes in neck size. Bushing dies are not good with big neck changes. There was a problem with that strategy, in the Redding bushing sizes are "no go", and Forster honed out full length dies are "go". So the system was off by .001". I complained and complained. I don't know if they listened to me, but Forster now offers honing in .0005" increments. __________________ The word 'forum" does not mean "not criticizing books." "Ad hominem fallacy" is not the same as point by point criticism of books. If you bought the book, and believe it all, it may FEEL like an ad hominem attack, but you might strive to accept other points of view may exist. Are we a nation of competing ideas, or a nation of forced conformity of thought?

February 13, 2015, 03:25 PM	#20
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Does anyone have a press ram and shellholder that grips a case so tight it cannot slide sideways to align it well with a die a bit off axis from it? I do, and more than one. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?