.38 load problems

[sparetime]

I am relatively new to pistol reloading and wanted to try reloading for .38 special.

I started out loading up 100 or so loads with 158 grain Berry's round nose plated bullets and 6.0 grains of Blue Dot. The primers are Winchester.

I am looking for a target round, so the data for lead in a comparable bullet seemed appropriate. Also, the selection of Blue Dot was due to having it on hand.

The .38 rounds have been a problem however. I have had two squib load with the bullet getting stuck in the barrel. The first time it happened I thought maybe I made a mistake on properly charging the case with powder. So I brought it home and weighted quite a number of finished cartridges to determine if there was much variation in the loads. i found them to be generally within a grain or so, which I attributed to the mixed brands of brass I used.

Second trip to the range produced another squib load and stuck bullet. So this time I brought the rest of the loads home (First time, first shot was stuck, second time no. 4, so I haven't fired many round here) and pulled the bullets on at least 20, weighting the charge as I did so. There were some that got a little light of the 6.0 grains, but mostly they were at the 6.0 grains desired.

Any thoughts on what is causing my problems? I read that starting with lead data for the plated bullets was a good place to start.

[Valornor]

Blue dot is a slower burning pistol powder that I have found doesn't work as well at starting loads. I would try bumping up the load and load a little under max. If you're dead set on Blue dot I might try switching to a magnum primer.

I might also think about switching powders all together. Blue dot is a fine powder but is a better shotgun powder then a pistol powder IMHO. Try using unique, its far more versatile powder and doesn't mind being loaded down for those target loads.

[Nick_C_S]

What kind of gun are you shooting these through? Make, model, barrel lenght.

You are loading waaaay too low. And of all powders, Blue Dot really really really doesn't like to be underloaded. Your squibs come as no surprise to me.

Hornady and Speer (their latest manuals) have no data on 38/158/BD - which is a clue in and of itself (it's an awkward load combo, but I'll leave that alone for now). Sierra has data and it starts at 7.4g and tops out at 8.2. You need to be in that range.

I read that starting with lead data for the plated bullets was a good place to start.

It's not. And I don't know who keeps that rumor alive, but it's wrong. With 38 Special, use jacketed data - period. 38's aren't powerful enough - especially with those lumbering 158's - to concern yourself with plating breakdown. Trust me, it's not going to happen. Just load them like they're jacketed. (If you start loading for 357 Magnum, still use jacketed data, just stay off the top end loads.)

There's more. . . But that's probably enough to digest for now. Loading is fun and so is the learning process - albeit with some headache sometimes. The good news is that you approached with caution and that's better than the other end of the spectrum.

[Nick_C_S]

I might also think about switching powders all together. Blue dot is a fine powder but is a better shotgun powder then a pistol powder IMHO.

I'm with Valornor on this one. Completely.

Now Sparetime, you mentioned that BD is the powder you have on hand. And I completely understand our current climate of component availability - especially powders. So if you want to go down the road of getting your 38/158/BD combination to work, it's possible to make it happen. But I will say that it is an awkward combination.

The one saving grace is the 158's - Blue Dot likes heavy bullets. This is also why I need to know what gun your going to shoot these through. If it's a 357 with some barrel length, we're good to go. If it's a 38 snubbie, you're gonna need to find a faster powder.

[sparetime]

The gun is a S&W 66-2 with a 4" barrel. So, it is a .357 magnum and can handle heavier loads.

I've been trying to find Bullseye powder at the local store, but it hasn't been available. They do have power pistol though. Maybe I'll see if there is a load that may work with PP instead.

Sounds like my problems are more a result of the combination. I'll see if I can get something else to work.

The Blue Dot seemed to work fine in my .44 mag. I was using 200 grain xtp's over 16 grains of Blue Dot. Seems a bit dirty, but shot very consistent.

[Valornor]

For magnum rounds and heavy bullets Blue Dot will do well. I'm not sure how it all works, but Blue Dot just needs to have a higher constant pressure to completely ignite and burn. This equates to slow and heavy bullets with longer barrels. I've used it in a .45 ACP with 200grn plated bullets and found it was ok, but not my prime choice. I wouldn't go any lower then that in caliber. Again that's just me.


I hear you with the powder shortage. I just picked up a pound of PP at Cabela's a few weeks ago. It's been the only decent pistol powder I've been able to find lately. Before that was HS-6 of which I have never really liked to use for pistol.

[Slamfire]

I like Bullseye in the 38 Special and have used it for decades now. I bought four pounds of Blue Dot and tried to figure out how to use the stuff. After extensive testing, I have concluded that it does not work well in these low to medium pressure pistol cartridges. Just look at my data below, Bullseye gives a reasonably tight extreme spread (ES), but Blue Dot, the ES’s are several hundred feet!

And this is why you got stuck bullets, this powder is not appropriate for this application.

4" S&W M10-5						
							
							
125 Valiant BBRNFP 4.0 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 				
9-Apr-06	T = 59 °F	 Elevation at least 4" low	Windage centered	accurate	
							
Ave Vel =	863.4	 					
Std Dev =	30				 		
ES	70.78				 		
High	907.5			 	 		
Low	836.7			 	 		
N =	6				 		
							
							
							
							
125 Valiant BBRNFP 4.5 grs Bullseye Mixed cases WSP 				
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation at least 4" low	Windage centered	accurate	
							
Ave Vel =	945.6	 					
Std Dev =	27.28				 		
ES	75.21				 		
High	995.2			 	 		
Low	920			 	 		
N =	6				 		
							
							
125 Valiant BBRNFP 6.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 				
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation Point of aim	Windage centered	accurate	
							
Ave Vel =	734	 					
Std Dev =	63.53				 		
ES	260				 		
High	829.6			 	 		
Low	569.5			 	 		
N =	18				 		
							
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.0  grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 				
9-Apr-06	T = 64 °F	 Elevation Point of aim	Windage centered	accurate	
							
Ave Vel =	788.2	 					
Std Dev =	63.3				 		
ES	241.3				 		
High	926.7			 	 		
Low	685.3			 	 		
N =	12				 		
							
							
125 Valiant BBRNFP 7.5 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 				
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F	 Elevation low 			poor accuracy		
							
Ave Vel =	867.3	 					
Std Dev =	53.06				 		
ES	235.6				 		
High	959.7			 	 		
Low	724.1			 	 		
N =	25				 		
							
							
125 Valiant BBRNFP 8.0 grs Blue Dot Mixed cases WSP 				
22-Apr-06	T = 68 °F	 Elevation all over the place 	very poor accuracy	loud at times	
							
Ave Vel =	990.2	 					
Std Dev =	56.55			 	 		
ES	236.1				 		
High	1093				 		
Low	857.5				 		
N =	25				 		
							

[Nick_C_S]

Get the Power Pistol.

PP is an unforgiving flake powder though. I only mention it to reinforce the principle of starting low and working up. But you can make some good rounds with it. It's a proven medium speed powder that has a reputation of making bullets go fast.

If you intend to load for 357 mag, then I would use the PP for that. It's better suited for 357; but we can make it work for 38 too - especially if being fired through a Model 66.

[Hammerhead]

Was there unburned powder in the revolver when you had the squibs?

[dwhite]

Even at the high end of .38 Special loads with 158 grain bullets
BlueDot is not a good choice. Been there, done that. Had unburned
powder sprayed all over the bench.

However, as others have said, it's great in upper mid-range
to full power magnum loads. It's really nice at night.

All the Best,
D. White

[jepp2]

Pretty much agree with what the others have to say about Blue Dot. It was my go to powder for 1400 fps 125 gr. 357 loads, and for hot 41 mag loads. But the Blue Dot warning has outlawed those loads, so I have transitioned to other powder.

Some powder like Blue Dot and Unique just don't really perform well until you get to the upper end of the pressure range. I will not say you can't use them, but there are just so many better powders to achieve what you want to do.

The squibs should be a major red flag for you.

[TimSr]

I'll disagree with the majority and say that Blue Dot works great for .38 with 158gr bullets. You just need to keep them loaded up in the +P range which should not be a problem from your .357. I don't have my reloading notes at the moment, and memory at my age is a dangerous thing, but I think I was starting with 7.3gr. I used jacketed bullet data from the old Speer #10 or #11. While its a slow powder, it is easy to ignite so they do not recommend magnum primers. Blue Dot works poorly for light target loads, but if you have a bunch of it on hand, and can't find more versatile alternatives like Unique or Bullseye, it makes great upper end .38 loads.

[zxcvbob]

Do you know any shotgunners who might sell you a half a pound of Red Dot from one of their kegs? (a few ounces of Red Dot will go a *long* way reloading .38 Specials)

[sparetime]

I found a pound of 231 at the local store and loaded up 50 rounds. Put 4.0 grains in behind the 158 Berry's and they shot fine. Put 4.0 grains behind some 148 wadcutters and they shot well too.

[AlaskaMike]

Nick_C_S wrote:

PP is an unforgiving flake powder though.

Nick, I have to ask--what is unforgiving about Power Pistol? I use it very successfully, not only in .38 Special, but also .45 ACP, and midrange .357 and .44 mag, as well as Ruger level .45 Colt loads. From my experience it's every bit as forgiving as 231 and Unique, perhaps even more.

A bit on the slow side for .38 Spl? Sure, but unforgiving? I'm not understanding that one.

Mike

[Chaz88]

sparetime

I've been trying to find Bullseye powder at the local store

I have some I could part with or trade for 2400 or something else. Not sure where you are located, I am in Iowa and will be travailing to Colorado this month.

[Nick_C_S]

Admittedly, "unforgiving" is a loose term, and is also relative to its speed range. Power Pistol is slower than both 231 and Unique, so it's going to naturally be more forgiving than both.

Power Pistol is not as forgiving as HS-6, for instance. They are very close in speed range. But HS-6 is much more linear when working up loads. As you add powder, velocities will increase in a straight, linear fashion. Signs of pressure will start to appear, and get predictably worse as you continue to increase the powder (this is not something the wise loader would actually do - this is for descriptive purposes only, to illustrate the point).

Power Pistol by contrast, tends to show signs of pressure relatively quickly, rather than in a linear fashion. From showing no signs of pressure, to serious signs of pressure can happen quickly - maybe just in the span of a few tenths of a grain.

I think Power Pistol is awesome stuff - make no mistake. I just know to move upward with a good deal of caution - especially with a small volume case like 9mm.

[jersurf101]

I have used blue dot and have tried it in .38 special and was less than pleased and had incomplete burning. I use Bullseye and Unique as a lot of others do but any powder in the appropriate burn rate should do a little better. There are Alliant, Hodgon, Accurate Arms, and VV to name a few. I would try to find something faster burning than the blue dot. jmho