Scandium 357's longitivity

BoogieMan · January 20, 2016, 04:42 PM

I am curious about the life expectancy of scandium and other light weight 357's. This would be a SD weapon and not a high volume range gun. However, I believe that one should be proficient with their SD handgun. In this case it would be a last resort BUG/boot gun. However I dont want it to be so short lived that it cant be practiced with either.

smee78 · January 20, 2016, 05:01 PM

You will stop shooting because your hand hurts before the gun wears out.

Nanuk · January 20, 2016, 07:26 PM

I had one, a 360 PD. After 100 rounds of 158 grain maggies It had to go back to S&W for a new frame and cylinder. When it came home I shot less than 50 rounds thru it, hmm spitting from the forcing cone again. I could see where the window was flexing so much the cylinder was contacting the frame in two places as it was fired. Back again for another new frame.

When it came back I called Smith and was appalled by what I was told. They were not designed to be shot with magnums. They figured you would shoot 5 magnums and then carry 38 Specials.

I sold it, now all my magnum revolvers are steel.

spacecoast · January 20, 2016, 07:33 PM

To make this post easier to search for future forum readers, you might want to change that title to "Longevity".

cslinger · January 20, 2016, 07:47 PM

At the 4 or 5 rounds a quarter I would put through one, probably damn near forever. I am not necessarily recoil sensitive but those itty bitty snubby .357s scandium guns with full bore magnum self defense stuff recoil not unlike a pipe bomb.

Realistically I have also heard of Smith saying they were not designed for a steady amount of hot ammo.

Chris

James K · January 20, 2016, 08:15 PM

Everyone who owns a .357 Scandium J frame should fire 10 to 20 thousand rounds of full power .357 to be sure the gun will hold up. Nothing less is enough!

Jim

cslinger · January 20, 2016, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Everyone who owns a .357 Scandium J frame should fire 10 to 20 thousand rounds of full power .357 to be sure the gun will hold up. Nothing less is enough!

I just got arthritic carpal tunnel just reading this.

Catfish · January 20, 2016, 08:54 PM

I have had a 329 PD, the 44 mag. version, for several years and have put several hundred rounds of full house .44 mag. loads through it, and a 1,000 round or so of 44 mag. target loads through it and still care it every day as my CCW gun. I have 100% faith in it.

Cosmodragoon · January 20, 2016, 09:07 PM

Quote:

When it came back I called Smith and was appalled by what I was told. They were not designed to be shot with magnums. They figured you would shoot 5 magnums and then carry 38 Specials.

I think I shot a box of twenty just to know. I don't hate recoil. I just think it should be effectively managed. (For instance, the radically more powerful S&W .460 manages to have fun recoil in an XVR.) Little alloy snubs with heavy magnum ammo are just an unpleasant combination. As another poster put it:

Quote:

... I am not necessarily recoil sensitive but those itty bitty snubby .357s scandium guns with full bore magnum self defense stuff recoil not unlike a pipe bomb.

This is part of why I've been so happy with the LCR in .327 Federal. The 85-grain Hydra-Shoks are surprisingly comfortable to shoot for the amount of power they deliver. It has effectively retired my .38 and .357 snubs!

Badfinger · January 20, 2016, 10:54 PM

I've owned two S&W scandium framed magnums, the J-framed 360PD and the L-framed 386NG. The little J-frame has been fed two boxes of .357 magnum ammo(100 rounds)and that was the first week I purchased it back in 2009, since then its been fired only with .38 spl +P, and even with those its seriously unpleasant to shoot. The 386NG on the other hand has been much easier to shoot magnums through, though not many have gone through it, I haven't kept an official count, but its under three hundred rounds. Its eaten around 1000 rounds of +P .38 spl, almost all of which was Federal 125 gr JSP's I bought from a wholesaler who had obtained it from a NJ PD. The little J-frame is a great bug, but its a fragile design to my mind, if you think you're going to stuff it with magnums you are going to either break it, or break your hand in short order, its definitely a gun intended to be shot rarely and carried often. The 386NG should last a long time if you stick with .38 spl +P, but its far more capable of eating magnums then the little J-frame, to bad its been DC'd!

BoogieMan · January 21, 2016, 08:30 AM

Thanks for the input and spelling correction.
It sounds like practice with one of these should be kept to 38spl and carried with +P or Mag. It is meant to be a BUG gun. If it gets used (hopefully never) it will be at a range under 5yds. If he is comfortable with the handling of the gun, then the accuracy of one load to the other should have no bearing. I have only fired full house 357 from full size 686s. The only lightweight that I own is a PA63 with 9mc. The PA63 is a tad snappy and the mac is no were near a 357 mag in energy.

Smoothshooter · January 21, 2016, 10:52 AM

Your hand will give out before the gun does.
Shooting even a few full-power .357 rounds in that gun may give you a terrible flinch that may take years to get over.
If you want .357 power, get a heavier gun.
In that short of a barrel, you are not going to get much or any increase over .38+P performance anyway.

mete · January 21, 2016, 11:22 AM

Remember that the K-frame 357 was designed when typical police use was to use 38spl for practice and full 357 loads for carry. The K-frame stood up to that.
That 38/357 mix was not good for police ! But the K-frame 100% was not good for the gun.
These new guns should be carefully used as far as materials and special finishes
are used . Have you carefully read the instructions ?? Loads and cleaning are specified often.
Scandium additions[about 1%] to aluminum do strengthen the gun but there are limits .

BoogieMan · January 21, 2016, 11:23 AM

I will have to look at the power gain or loss from 38+P to 357 or other options. I think he will be able to use 38s to qualify and practice

FlyFish · January 21, 2016, 11:25 AM

Every time a discussion of these scandium .357s comes up I'm reminded of a former shooting buddy of mine who had one (the 360, with the exposed hammer, not the 340) and, in a colossal case of poor judgement, talked his non-gun-experienced girlfriend into trying it. Which, in an even more colossal case of poor judgement, she agreed to do. When she fired it, the gun rotated back in her hand and the hammer spur punched a hole into the fleshy area between her thumb and first finger that took a number of stitches to close. They've since parted ways. He claims there's no cause-and-effect relationship between the two events, but I remain unconvinced.

**OldMarksman** · January 21, 2016, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Your hand will give out before the gun does.

Yep--nerve damage, tendon damage, joint injuries.....

Quote:

Shooting even a few full-power .357 rounds in that gun may give you a terrible flinch that may take years to get over.

Perhaps, but also consider the impact of recoil on your ability to put four or five controlled shots on target in about a second and a half.

849ACSO · January 21, 2016, 11:45 AM

I have a model 360 that I have run 1K or better 357 mag loads through and countless more 38 Spl.

Actually, this is my second one. The first one made it through 5 rounds of 38 Spl before the frame cracked below the forcing cone. It went back to the factory. I got a call from the gunsmith at the factory and was told the barrel on the previous gun had been machine fitted and was likely over torqued during assembly. The new gun (new frame, but all the rest of the parts were from my original) was put together by hand, by him. We talked about the gun's diet and I was told to hammer away with full house loads, as I would get tired and sore before there would be breakage. Turns out he was right.

Once the gun arrived back, I immediately ran 200 rounds of Federal 357 Mag, 158gr high velocity rounds through it (I had to get 2 other officers from my department to help me, as after about 70 or so, I was done for the day).

It rides on my ankle to work every day and looks like it's been drug behind a pickup and used as a fence stretcher, but it functions fine and the frame shows no signs of cracking.

BoogieMan · January 21, 2016, 02:22 PM

Is there an option to the Smith and Wesson 340PD at about 11oz empty?

FrankenMauser · January 21, 2016, 02:47 PM

It wasn't even the scandium frame model, but my .38 Special Airweight lost timing on two chambers after just 47 rounds.
They were all full power, +P loads, but met the recommendations set by S&W for the revolver.

I have spent some time with an AirLite (scandium) in .357 Mag. The owner and those of us that shoot with him have put probably 600-800 rounds through it.
No matter what the load is, if it's getting full-power ammo, every second to third cylinder experiences crimp jump and cylinder lockup.
Then you have to dig out a dowel or cleaning rod, tap the offending bullet back into the cylinder far enough to open the crane, open it up, dump the offending round(s), and clean up the mess from all of the spilled powder.
If I had one, I'd probably run .38 Special (not +P). There's no way I could trust it with full power .357 Mag.

Bill DeShivs · January 21, 2016, 07:00 PM

Why not just buy a gun in .38 Special, and be done with it?

BoogieMan · January 22, 2016, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Why not just buy a gun in .38 Special, and be done with it?

I dont think that 38s has enough power for this application.

Cosmodragoon · January 22, 2016, 08:06 AM

Quote:

In this case it would be a last resort BUG/boot gun.

Quote:

I dont think that 38s has enough power for this application.

Is this necessarily true? I guess we'd have to ask: under what circumstances will a .38 +p fail but a .357 succeed?

In terms of your question about scandium, breaking under the pressure of a round certainly counts as failure!

Luckily, there are other frame options. One nice thing is that a .38 special can be smaller and lighter. For instance, compare the LCR in .38 and .357. One is a tad lighter. Neither is likely to break with the intended ammo.

Bill DeShivs · January 22, 2016, 03:48 PM

.38 Special is an entirely adequate defense cartridge.

Nanuk · January 22, 2016, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Your hand will give out before the gun does.

Must not have read my post.

gbran · January 23, 2016, 01:40 AM

I have .38 Airweights which are better than real lively to light off. My J Frame 357 is a stainless 649, probably 22-23 oz. and it hurts with magnums, but is manageable. I wanted an 8 shot snubbie and decided on the 627 stainless over the 327 scandium just because of vicious recoil.

January 20, 2016, 04:42 PM	#1
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Scandium 357's longevity I am curious about the life expectancy of scandium and other light weight 357's. This would be a SD weapon and not a high volume range gun. However, I believe that one should be proficient with their SD handgun. In this case it would be a last resort BUG/boot gun. However I dont want it to be so short lived that it cant be practiced with either. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown Last edited by BoogieMan; January 21, 2016 at 08:21 AM.

January 20, 2016, 05:01 PM	#2
smee78 Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Location: South Carolina Posts: 2,918	You will stop shooting because your hand hurts before the gun wears out. __________________ We know exactly where one cow with Mad-cow-disease is located, among the millions and millions of cows in America, but we haven't got a clue where thousands of illegal immigrants and terrorists are

January 20, 2016, 07:26 PM	#3
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I had one, a 360 PD. After 100 rounds of 158 grain maggies It had to go back to S&W for a new frame and cylinder. When it came home I shot less than 50 rounds thru it, hmm spitting from the forcing cone again. I could see where the window was flexing so much the cylinder was contacting the frame in two places as it was fired. Back again for another new frame. When it came back I called Smith and was appalled by what I was told. They were not designed to be shot with magnums. They figured you would shoot 5 magnums and then carry 38 Specials. I sold it, now all my magnum revolvers are steel. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

January 20, 2016, 07:47 PM	#5
cslinger Senior Member Join Date: July 14, 2002 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 2,045	At the 4 or 5 rounds a quarter I would put through one, probably damn near forever. I am not necessarily recoil sensitive but those itty bitty snubby .357s scandium guns with full bore magnum self defense stuff recoil not unlike a pipe bomb. Realistically I have also heard of Smith saying they were not designed for a steady amount of hot ammo. Chris __________________ "Is there anyway I can write my local gun store off on my taxes as dependents?"

January 21, 2016, 08:30 AM	#11
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Thanks for the input and spelling correction. It sounds like practice with one of these should be kept to 38spl and carried with +P or Mag. It is meant to be a BUG gun. If it gets used (hopefully never) it will be at a range under 5yds. If he is comfortable with the handling of the gun, then the accuracy of one load to the other should have no bearing. I have only fired full house 357 from full size 686s. The only lightweight that I own is a PA63 with 9mc. The PA63 is a tad snappy and the mac is no were near a 357 mag in energy. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 20, 2016, 07:33 PM	#4
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	To make this post easier to search for future forum readers, you might want to change that title to "Longevity".

January 20, 2016, 08:15 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Everyone who owns a .357 Scandium J frame should fire 10 to 20 thousand rounds of full power .357 to be sure the gun will hold up. Nothing less is enough! Jim

January 20, 2016, 08:54 PM	#8
Catfish Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2010 Location: Ohio Posts: 171	I have had a 329 PD, the 44 mag. version, for several years and have put several hundred rounds of full house .44 mag. loads through it, and a 1,000 round or so of 44 mag. target loads through it and still care it every day as my CCW gun. I have 100% faith in it.

January 20, 2016, 10:54 PM	#10
Badfinger Senior Member Join Date: October 16, 2015 Posts: 110	I've owned two S&W scandium framed magnums, the J-framed 360PD and the L-framed 386NG. The little J-frame has been fed two boxes of .357 magnum ammo(100 rounds)and that was the first week I purchased it back in 2009, since then its been fired only with .38 spl +P, and even with those its seriously unpleasant to shoot. The 386NG on the other hand has been much easier to shoot magnums through, though not many have gone through it, I haven't kept an official count, but its under three hundred rounds. Its eaten around 1000 rounds of +P .38 spl, almost all of which was Federal 125 gr JSP's I bought from a wholesaler who had obtained it from a NJ PD. The little J-frame is a great bug, but its a fragile design to my mind, if you think you're going to stuff it with magnums you are going to either break it, or break your hand in short order, its definitely a gun intended to be shot rarely and carried often. The 386NG should last a long time if you stick with .38 spl +P, but its far more capable of eating magnums then the little J-frame, to bad its been DC'd!

January 21, 2016, 10:52 AM	#12
Smoothshooter Junior Member Join Date: January 20, 2016 Location: SW Missouri Posts: 9	Your hand will give out before the gun does. Shooting even a few full-power .357 rounds in that gun may give you a terrible flinch that may take years to get over. If you want .357 power, get a heavier gun. In that short of a barrel, you are not going to get much or any increase over .38+P performance anyway.

January 21, 2016, 11:22 AM	#13
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Remember that the K-frame 357 was designed when typical police use was to use 38spl for practice and full 357 loads for carry. The K-frame stood up to that. That 38/357 mix was not good for police ! But the K-frame 100% was not good for the gun. These new guns should be carefully used as far as materials and special finishes are used . Have you carefully read the instructions ?? Loads and cleaning are specified often. Scandium additions[about 1%] to aluminum do strengthen the gun but there are limits . __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

January 21, 2016, 11:23 AM	#14
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I will have to look at the power gain or loss from 38+P to 357 or other options. I think he will be able to use 38s to qualify and practice __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 21, 2016, 11:25 AM	#15
FlyFish Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Overlooking the Baker River Valley Posts: 1,723	Every time a discussion of these scandium .357s comes up I'm reminded of a former shooting buddy of mine who had one (the 360, with the exposed hammer, not the 340) and, in a colossal case of poor judgement, talked his non-gun-experienced girlfriend into trying it. Which, in an even more colossal case of poor judgement, she agreed to do. When she fired it, the gun rotated back in her hand and the hammer spur punched a hole into the fleshy area between her thumb and first finger that took a number of stitches to close. They've since parted ways. He claims there's no cause-and-effect relationship between the two events, but I remain unconvinced. __________________ NRA Benefactor Life Member NRA Certified Instructor: Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, PPIH, Metallic & Shotgun Shell Reloading; RSO Pemigewasset Valley Fish & Game Club

January 21, 2016, 11:45 AM	#17
849ACSO Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2014 Location: Somewhere in the middle Posts: 629	I have a model 360 that I have run 1K or better 357 mag loads through and countless more 38 Spl. Actually, this is my second one. The first one made it through 5 rounds of 38 Spl before the frame cracked below the forcing cone. It went back to the factory. I got a call from the gunsmith at the factory and was told the barrel on the previous gun had been machine fitted and was likely over torqued during assembly. The new gun (new frame, but all the rest of the parts were from my original) was put together by hand, by him. We talked about the gun's diet and I was told to hammer away with full house loads, as I would get tired and sore before there would be breakage. Turns out he was right. Once the gun arrived back, I immediately ran 200 rounds of Federal 357 Mag, 158gr high velocity rounds through it (I had to get 2 other officers from my department to help me, as after about 70 or so, I was done for the day). It rides on my ankle to work every day and looks like it's been drug behind a pickup and used as a fence stretcher, but it functions fine and the frame shows no signs of cracking. __________________ "The day you stop learning SHOULD directly coincide with the day you stop breathing."

January 21, 2016, 02:22 PM	#18
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	Is there an option to the Smith and Wesson 340PD at about 11oz empty? __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

January 21, 2016, 02:47 PM	#19
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	It wasn't even the scandium frame model, but my .38 Special Airweight lost timing on two chambers after just 47 rounds. They were all full power, +P loads, but met the recommendations set by S&W for the revolver. I have spent some time with an AirLite (scandium) in .357 Mag. The owner and those of us that shoot with him have put probably 600-800 rounds through it. No matter what the load is, if it's getting full-power ammo, every second to third cylinder experiences crimp jump and cylinder lockup. Then you have to dig out a dowel or cleaning rod, tap the offending bullet back into the cylinder far enough to open the crane, open it up, dump the offending round(s), and clean up the mess from all of the spilled powder. If I had one, I'd probably run .38 Special (not +P). There's no way I could trust it with full power .357 Mag. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

January 21, 2016, 07:00 PM	#20
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Why not just buy a gun in .38 Special, and be done with it? __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 22, 2016, 03:48 PM	#23
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	.38 Special is an entirely adequate defense cartridge. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

January 23, 2016, 01:40 AM	#25
gbran Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: Middle California Posts: 364	I have .38 Airweights which are better than real lively to light off. My J Frame 357 is a stainless 649, probably 22-23 oz. and it hurts with magnums, but is manageable. I wanted an 8 shot snubbie and decided on the 627 stainless over the 327 scandium just because of vicious recoil.