July 6, 2012, 09:40 AM | #2476 | |
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I suppose people have different goals in mind for what they'd like to see. I'd like to find out if indeed the NRA's accusation is true, that people came up with a scheme to allow guns to get into the hands of cartel members primarily to bolster the idea that guns from U.S gun stores were arming the Mexican cartels - as a prelude to calling for stricter gun control laws. That is the crux of the issue for me because if that charge is true, an entire agency of the U.S. governement was used (or allowed itself to be used) in a conspiracy to lie to and manipulate the American people. That, to me is huge. That to me is the most important issue that must be addressed. If true, all of the people in the conspiracy should be brought to justice so that Fast & Furious is the precedent for what happens when politicians / appointees / federal employees conspire to use the pwoer of the federal government against the American people. Will any of that happen? Maybe not, probably not. But that is more important to me than whether Barrack Obama gets reelected, or this party or that gets control of the Senate or the House. Last edited by Luger_carbine; July 6, 2012 at 10:04 AM. |
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July 6, 2012, 12:41 PM | #2477 |
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The administration claimed that most of the firearms traces coming pout of Mexico were for firearms which originated in the United States and they called for more stringent controls. When it was found that their claims were false they needed to save face, and their scheme, by bolstering the numbers. The solution was to make the numbers match the claim.
<Captain Picard> "Make it so, Number One." </Captain Picard> <First Officer> "Aye, aye. Right away, Sir." </First Officer> Guess who's the Captain and who's the First Officer.
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July 6, 2012, 04:08 PM | #2478 | |
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I don't know of too many elected and/or appointed officials or bureaucrats in DC that understand the concept of honor, let alone duty or country nowadays. Hopefully there is at least one, but no one seems to be forthcoming. Sad that. We need a John Dean.
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July 6, 2012, 04:18 PM | #2479 | |
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As jimpeel points out, the administration was trying to claim that the Mexican cartels were arming themselves primarily through illegal purchases at American gun stores, but they didn't have data to support the claim. The administration continues to claim that the "intent" of F&F was to "track" the guns across the border to cartel kingpins. How many ways does this claim NOT make sense?
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July 6, 2012, 06:21 PM | #2480 | |
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The precursor to F&F was Operation Wide Receiver which was undertaken during the Bush (43) Administration. Key differences between Fast & Furious and Wide Receiver are than "walked" guns from WR had tracking devices installed in them and WR was coordinated with the Mexican Gov't. WR was a failure because the cartels discovered and removed the tracking devices and thus the "walked" guns were lost. WR was shut down in 2007 due to the "walked" guns being lost. F&F, on the other hand, did not begin until 2009 after the Obama administration had taken over. Rather than attempt to find better ways of tracking the guns and coordinating with the Mexican Gov't, the ATF under the new administration decided to abandon the two attributes of WR that allowed the guns to be tracked at all. Now, I fail to see how anyone of even moderate intelligence can think that repeating a failed sting operation without any attempt to track the contraband will work any better than the original operation, or even as well for that matter. While government bureaucrats aren't exactly known as shining beacons of genius, I have a hard time believing that so many people so far up the proverbial food chain could be so abjectly stupid. Add to the fact that both Secretary of State Clinton and Attorney General Holder called for gun control due to violence in Mexico in early 2009 and were "hushed" about the issue by the administration, the famous quote of former Chief of Staff (and current mayor of Chicago) Rahm Emmanuel "never let a good crisis go to waste", and the allusion by the President that new gun control efforts were in the works (though he characteristically failed to mention specifics) and I think that the true intent of F&F becomes fairly obvious. The problem is, intent is an extremely difficult thing to prove. Unless evidence of someone very high up in the administration or DOJ specifically stating that F&F's goal was to drum up public support for gun control can be produced (unlikely), then the President, Attorney General, Secretary of State, and Secretary of Homeland Security all still have a certain degree of plausible deniability. |
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July 7, 2012, 10:17 AM | #2481 |
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The UN treaty has been discussed before. Please search on the topic as it is not relevant to the F and F thread. We also don't need a new thread on the treaty.
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July 8, 2012, 10:35 PM | #2482 |
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Luger_carbine:
I suspect your comments in what might have been your last post, #2476regarding the origin, the impetus and the blame for the screw-up that is and was Operation F & F are essentially on the mark. Problem is in so proving, for if allegations were proven, a bunch of people would be going to jail. As to how many of them would be in line for presidential pardons, that might be the question of the year. I wonder also as to the following. Can the president pardon himself? |
July 9, 2012, 02:41 PM | #2483 | |
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All this being said, the chances of President Obama pardoning himself for F&F are, IMHO, extremely small. First, I find it doubtful that there is enough evidence to prove that the President was involved in or had direct knowledge of F&F. Secondly, pardoning himself would be, in effect, an admission of guilt that would be, at the very least, politically damaging in the extreme. Finally, the President pardoning himself is a political stunt that's never even been attempted before and may not even fly in the first place (I have a feeling that if it did, Nixon would've probably proactively pardoned himself before leaving office). |
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July 9, 2012, 02:55 PM | #2484 |
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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78243.html
Five charge in Agent's death. Interesting to see what the trial says about the guns' origins. Esp. given that piece in Fortune. It would seem to me that the trial would highlight the problems of F and F.
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July 9, 2012, 06:10 PM | #2485 |
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It won't come to trial. The perps will never be caught. At least some are buried already, I guess. The trial also is about murder. The perps can be tied to the weapons, maybe, without a lot of discussion or any comebacks as to how they got them. The focus will have to be on what they did with the weapons.
This means nothing. It's a herring, a smelly red one.
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July 9, 2012, 07:44 PM | #2486 | ||
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Some e-mails were obtained by CBS. One of those e-mails reported four perps in custody: http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/at...in;contentBody From a tape given to CBS: Quote:
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July 9, 2012, 08:52 PM | #2487 | |
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Interesting CNN / Orc Intl poll on Holder / F&F & Executive Privledge
http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2012/im...7/09/rel6d.pdf
Holder's favorable rating actually went up from 2009, but his unfavorable rating went up by a greater margin. The poll question that stands out for me: Quote:
It always comes down to that doesn't it? If everything is as they say it is and there is nothing to hide then why not just turn over the documents? |
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July 10, 2012, 06:07 AM | #2488 |
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^^^^ Isn't tthat like saying, "if you have nothing to hide, why can't I search your car?"
If I have nothing to hide, I can still invoke my rights. In this case it's a privilage, but the same idea. Rick
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July 10, 2012, 06:27 AM | #2489 | |
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We all have the same rights under the constitution. Only POTUS can invoke Executive Privilege. And since POTUS has also stated publicly that he had no knowledge of F&F, it appears that he is hiding the work of others, not himself. Not what privilege was supposed to do, is it?
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July 10, 2012, 08:31 AM | #2490 | |
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Congress isn't asking for access to rumage around in all of DOJ's files and through their entire e-mail system, they are asking for a specific set of documents, a finite number and within a certain date range. |
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July 10, 2012, 09:49 AM | #2491 |
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AG Holder claimed that they had turned over relevant documents... there is this whole spin doctoring of whether DOJ cooperated or not...
It would have helped their PR cause if more docs had been turned over. When they talk about the 7,600 documents they turned over - they make it sound like it was a herculean effort to produce an encyclopedic trove of documents. They're doing the best they can with it but it's lipstick on a pig considering the number of documents requested. IMO, the bulk of the documents requested contain damaging evidence. If DOJ could have turned over any more documents to bolster their claim of cooperation - they certainly would have. |
July 10, 2012, 09:50 AM | #2492 |
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July 10, 2012, 10:54 AM | #2493 | |
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July 10, 2012, 11:26 AM | #2494 |
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I couldn't remember how many documents congress requested so I was Googling it, and this is the first time that the Fast & Furious site came up in my search.
I don't know how Google ranks their searches, but it seems to me that the site is moving up in the rankings for where it appears in a search. I just typed "Fast and Furious documents" and the website was the third entry listed. |
July 10, 2012, 01:29 PM | #2495 |
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The house oversight committee website has been up for over one year.
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July 10, 2012, 05:29 PM | #2496 |
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DOJ has turned over 7600 instruments to the Oversight Committee, some so heavily redacted (entire pages blacked out) that even Jon Stewart on the Daily Show was making jokes about it.
At the same time, DOJ turned over 80000 documents to the DOJ IG. DOJ has claimed they have provided all relevant documents to Congress but have repeatedly failed to account for this discrepancy or even turn over a privilege log (when you claim a privilege not to turn over documents in a court room, you must identify via a short description what documents you are withholding and the legal privilege you are claiming protects them). |
July 10, 2012, 05:31 PM | #2497 |
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The feds recently indicted 5 in the murder of Brian Terry and are looking for 4 of them. What I do not understand is that they originally arrested at least 4 on the spot and were looking for 1 more so what did they do let them go at some point? I'm not understanding what's going on. Are these indicments for some other charges?
http://borderissues.us/2010/12/16/fi...-agents-death/ http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...n-arrests-made http://cnsnews.com/news/article/four...r-patrol-agent |
July 10, 2012, 07:17 PM | #2498 |
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Bartholomew Roberts:
Re your comments in post # 2496, the smell of rotten fish, coming from DOJ grows stronger by the second. |
July 10, 2012, 10:04 PM | #2499 | |
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i had the same question. Wonder what the FBI did with the third gun; an SKS? |
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July 10, 2012, 10:15 PM | #2500 |
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It gets better, most of the guys they got on the spot were not chagred but deported.
http://www.texasgopvote.com/us-attor...ut-town-002516 |
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