Hammer messed up?

kflach · July 23, 2009, 12:50 PM

I took my '58 Remmy apart for the first time the other night and I noticed that the face of the hammer had a ring in it - as if it had hit a nipple real hard and got an indention. It's off center, real close to the left edge of the hammer. In fact, there's a little bit of metal near the edge that sticks out which I figured I might have to file down or something. The stock nipples look fine - none of them looks like they're smashed in any way that I could tell so I thought maybe this was the way it's supposed to be.

I haven't shot the gun yet: I dry-fired it a few times when I first got it, but only a very few times. The gun was the display gun in the store so there's no telling how many times it's actually been dry-fired (I hope that's the correct term) or dropped or whatever.

I've been thinking about this and figured I'd better ask: is this normal or should I replace the hammer before I fire the gun?

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 12:58 PM

It will be fine. The hammers on repros are pretty soft and it doesn't take much to ding them. Dry firing a C&B even once is a no no. A perfect fit wouldn't let the hammer touch the nipple but that's a little much to ask for guns that are mass produced with little or no hand fitting. I'd just file off the overhang and let it go but if you're careful and good with a file you can reface the hammer so it doesn't touch the nipple but will still reliably fire caps. I'd have a backup hammer on hand before I did it tho............Just in case.

Doc Hoy · July 23, 2009, 12:59 PM

Delete because I made a stupid post.

Please forgive.

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 01:01 PM

Doc I've seen that before on a used Remington I bought. It's an indentation in the hammer itself. That CCH isn't real.

arcticap · July 23, 2009, 01:02 PM

It's shouldn't be anything to worry about. The nipples are fractionally larger than necessary.
There's been reports of hammers being off center and noticiably hitting one side of the frame. But that doesn't seem to be a problem with yours.
Maybe the hammer is a little softer and only surface hardened to not damage the nipples as easily.
Just don't dry fire it anymore without protecting the nipples, some folks remove the cylinder.
The nipples will wear over time so why file the hammer face if not necessary?
Why not try firing it with only caps as a function test? And don't forget to wear some eye and ear protection.

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 01:12 PM

Doc your post wasn't stupid.

Quote:

It's shouldn't be anything to worry about.

No it's nothing to worry about but he does need to file off the overhang he was talking about. I disagree about nipples wearing down with age tho. I've got an older repro that's 40 years old and still has the original nipples in it. They take #9 caps which haven't been made in a long time. Pinch fit 10's work pretty good tho. Those hammers are pretty soft. Mine had a deep indentation in the nose from dry firing.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to be argumentative but I'm really not.

ClemBert · July 23, 2009, 01:22 PM

I'd take a file and remove 1/64th (your mileage may vary) of the hammer face and see if that doesn't resolve the hammer/nipple contact problem. I replaced my Uberti factory nipples with Treso bronze nipples then removed about 1/64 of the hammer face so the hammer doesn't make contact with the nipples. My hammer had a slight impact ring like yours but it was centered. It is common for a lot of 1858's to come with off center hammers. Sometimes it is bad enough such that the hammer makes slight contact with the left side of the frame. Fortunately my 1858 doesn't have this problem.

I dry fire my BP revolvers all the time.

My Rugers Old Armies came from the factory with proper hammer-to-nipple clearance but that's probably why a ROA cost $400-$500 instead of $200-$300.

arcticap · July 23, 2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

I disagree about nipples wearing down with age tho.

You may certainly be right about nipples not wearing.
I think that the malleable copper percussion cap serves to protect the nipple as long as it isn't dry fired [much].
Some guns do have hardened hammers and still don't seem to cause nipple damage if they're not dry fired.
Other nipples may be softer but most will often last for a lifetime of shooting if not abused.

madcratebuilder · July 23, 2009, 02:22 PM

I have worked on a few Remingtons, mostly Pietta's. They tend to have a soft hammer face. They tend to deform the nose of the nipples if dry fired. (Are Pietta nipples softer than others??) I dress the end of the nipples and face the hammer for few thousandth clearance, then harden it. Also it's not unusual to see the nipple ring on the hammer face off center, quite a bit on some.

kflach · July 23, 2009, 02:32 PM

Mine is a Pietta. I stopped dry firing as soon as I read something about it in one of the zillion forums/articles I came across.

This is probably a very stupid question, but are the caps considered ordinance? How would I determine if it was legal to do a test in my back yard in the suburbs (obviously *only the caps* and absolutely nothing else in the cylinder)?

Deadguy · July 23, 2009, 03:23 PM

If you are firing just the caps to test it, you can do so safely inside your garage (just have a window open and a fan blowing, as the caps do contain lead in the priming compound). Then you won't have to worry about neighbors seeing anything to complain about.

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 03:26 PM

Quote:

(Are Pietta nipples softer than others??)

I have no idea. All of my C&B's have been Pietta except for one brass frame Remington .36 of unknown make. Speaking of which the hammer on it has a nipple ring(did I just say that?

)but the nipples aren't deformed. They could have been replaced at some time tho. My camera doesn't take good close ups but you can still see it.

Yes folks I had a cocked revolver pointed at my sternum to take the pic now where's my Darwin award?

Doc Hoy · July 23, 2009, 03:35 PM

Hawg,

Reason I deleted the post was that I neglected to read kflach's full post. He said the pistol had never been live fired, so no residual cap metal could find it's way to the hammer. (Hammer never in contact w/ brass).

I would not be surprised to find that under circumstances in which a pistol had been fired or at least a cap popped, that some brass could transfer to the hammer. I never looked at mine so I am guessing (as I usually do).

Tnx,

Doc Hoy · July 23, 2009, 03:42 PM

kflach,

You might want to warn your neighbors as well. (Unless they are ignorant, whiney, bleeding heart liberal, commie, pinko, shake-in-their-boots, doofus, Taliban, nerds who are afraid of their own shadow and call 911 every time they turn over a thousand miles on the odometer in their car.)

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 03:44 PM

Colt designs have a slot in the hammer that is bad about getting caps lodged in it but I can't recall ever having a cap or part of a cap stick to the hammer of a Remington.

BTW the hammer on that .36 rests solidly on the nipples. Remove the cylinder and the hammer will drop another 1/16 of an inch or so. It won't fit inside the safety notches either. I really need to dress it up some. Beautiful case colors on it but is soft.

kflach · July 23, 2009, 04:01 PM

Is there a way to check how the hammer rests over the nipples/cap on a Remington? The top strap kind of gets in the way.

Hawg · July 23, 2009, 04:10 PM

Mine is pretty obvious. You can tell just by looking at it. I never tried to measure one before.

madcratebuilder · July 23, 2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Is there a way to check how the hammer rests over the nipples/cap on a Remington? The top strap kind of gets in the way.

You should have about .006-.008 end play in the cylinder, or less. If the hammer hits the nipples it pushes against the cylinder, you can feel it, but can't really see it. What you can see is the hammer moving when you push the cylinder back, if the nipples are touching the hammer.

Here are some peened nipples.

Nipple marks on hammer.

kflach · July 24, 2009, 08:53 AM

Thank goodness none of my nipples look like that!

As far as filing the extra metal sticking off the side of the hammer, is there a specific file I should use?

Noz · July 24, 2009, 09:41 AM

Again, the question is how much are you going to shoot the gun. If 50-100 shots is all that the gun will ever receive then don't worry about the nipple hammer/interface. If 50 shots is going to be a weekly thing then it is a cause for concern. To determine how much the hammer is striking the nipples: Lower the hammer onto a cylinder with nipples of your choice installed. With a sharp soft lead pencil mark the side of the hammer where it disappears behind the frame. Remove the cylinder and lower the hammer again. Mark the hammer again. In an ideal world the two marks should be on top of each other. If not then the difference between the two marks is the amount of hammer face that should be removed. Take it in very small steps with a very fine file keeping the new surface parallel to the old. I used printers ink on the hammer face and lowered it onto the nipples until I saw no contact between the nipple and the hammer. (The sides of the hammer on a Remington should bottom out on the side of the frame, the hammer on the Colt copies should bottom out on the back of the frame in the hammer slot.)
You are dealing with a file stroke or two being too much or too little so be careful.
I had a pair of Remingtons that would destroy a set of TRESO nipples in one cowboy match. After trimming the hammers, they ran using the same set of nipples for over a year.
Nipples that are slightly mushroomed can be dressed down to original shape by chucking the nipple(threaded portion chucked into the drill) into a cordless drill and turning the mushroomed portion of the nipple slowly onto a fine file. Cordless drill because the RPMs are slow enough that the chance of taking too much off is slight.
If you don't feel comfortable working on your own guns then find a good gunsmith.
I work on my guns continually. I have found my self reordering parts on occasion because I have screwed up. It takes me longer than a trip to the gunsmith but I know what has been done to my guns.

grymster2007 · July 24, 2009, 10:28 AM

One could measure the hammer/nipple clearance with a few strips of shim stock and a micrometer.... or even paper would work. My guess is that the clearance will vary (and maybe considerably) from nipple to nipple. Both from variances in nipple length and the location of the face on which they lock out on the cylinder.

Quote:

Yes folks I had a cocked revolver pointed at my sternum to take the pic now where's my Darwin award?

I would have just claimed to have used the camera's timer function!

kflach · July 24, 2009, 10:44 AM

I'm not planning on touching the hammer face itself. The ring is so off-center it bulges out the side of the hammer (along the edge where the side meets the face) just a tad. I was thinking I'd smooth that side edge out

Hawg · July 24, 2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

I would have just claimed to have used the camera's timer function!

I would have had to get in front of it to set the shot up anyway.

ClemBert · July 24, 2009, 11:38 AM

Quote:

I'm not planning on touching the hammer face itself. The ring is so off-center it bulges out the side of the hammer (along the edge where the side meets the face) just a tad. I was thinking I'd smooth that side edge out

Hmmm, I would have expected the nipple impact ring to be on the right side of the hammer not the left side. I had assume your 1858 had the typical "lean" of the hammer to the left side as it sits in the frame slot. This issue has caused, for some, either slight contact of the hammer with the left side of the frame or a significant problem, a "bounce" of the hammer off the frame. The case with slight contact will often show "scrape" marks on the left side of the hammer.

In the following pictures you can see where this particular 1858's hammer nose was hitting the left side frame and causing a ding. In addition, you can see the hammer was rubbing on the left side of the frame. This was an Uberti made 1858 that I returned to Cimarron primarily because the barrel was off canter.

However, in this example the nipple impact ring will be on the right side of the hammer not the left like your 1858. It would appear that your hammer is actually leaning to the right side and therefore the nipple impact ring will be on the left side as your diagram indicates. I assume your lock works timing is good? The bolt is engaged in the cylinder stop when the hammer falls, right?

There is a way to shim the hammer so it sits in the middle of the frame slot. It probably won't take long for someone to come along and point out where you can purchase the shims. I seem to recall the shims are sold by MidwayUSA and made for the ROA.

grymster2007 · July 24, 2009, 12:12 PM

Quote:

I would have had to get in front of it to set the shot up anyway.

Set the timer, then get on the safe side of the revolver and point it at the camera. OTOH Hawg, I saw a pic of you once and I'm pretty sure you could take a .44 ball to the sternum.

July 23, 2009, 12:50 PM	#1
kflach Registration in progress Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 99	Hammer messed up? I took my '58 Remmy apart for the first time the other night and I noticed that the face of the hammer had a ring in it - as if it had hit a nipple real hard and got an indention. It's off center, real close to the left edge of the hammer. In fact, there's a little bit of metal near the edge that sticks out which I figured I might have to file down or something. The stock nipples look fine - none of them looks like they're smashed in any way that I could tell so I thought maybe this was the way it's supposed to be. I haven't shot the gun yet: I dry-fired it a few times when I first got it, but only a very few times. The gun was the display gun in the store so there's no telling how many times it's actually been dry-fired (I hope that's the correct term) or dropped or whatever. I've been thinking about this and figured I'd better ask: is this normal or should I replace the hammer before I fire the gun?

July 23, 2009, 12:59 PM	#3
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Could it be? Delete because I made a stupid post. Please forgive. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 23, 2009, 01:02 PM	#5
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	It's shouldn't be anything to worry about. The nipples are fractionally larger than necessary. There's been reports of hammers being off center and noticiably hitting one side of the frame. But that doesn't seem to be a problem with yours. Maybe the hammer is a little softer and only surface hardened to not damage the nipples as easily. Just don't dry fire it anymore without protecting the nipples, some folks remove the cylinder. The nipples will wear over time so why file the hammer face if not necessary? Why not try firing it with only caps as a function test? And don't forget to wear some eye and ear protection. Last edited by arcticap; July 23, 2009 at 01:20 PM.

July 23, 2009, 01:22 PM	#7
ClemBert Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2009 Location: Orlando Posts: 936	I'd take a file and remove 1/64th (your mileage may vary) of the hammer face and see if that doesn't resolve the hammer/nipple contact problem. I replaced my Uberti factory nipples with Treso bronze nipples then removed about 1/64 of the hammer face so the hammer doesn't make contact with the nipples. My hammer had a slight impact ring like yours but it was centered. It is common for a lot of 1858's to come with off center hammers. Sometimes it is bad enough such that the hammer makes slight contact with the left side of the frame. Fortunately my 1858 doesn't have this problem. I dry fire my BP revolvers all the time. My Rugers Old Armies came from the factory with proper hammer-to-nipple clearance but that's probably why a ROA cost $400-$500 instead of $200-$300. Last edited by ClemBert; July 23, 2009 at 01:36 PM.

July 23, 2009, 03:35 PM	#13
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Lemme explain Hawg, Reason I deleted the post was that I neglected to read kflach's full post. He said the pistol had never been live fired, so no residual cap metal could find it's way to the hammer. (Hammer never in contact w/ brass). I would not be surprised to find that under circumstances in which a pistol had been fired or at least a cap popped, that some brass could transfer to the hammer. I never looked at mine so I am guessing (as I usually do). Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 23, 2009, 12:58 PM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	It will be fine. The hammers on repros are pretty soft and it doesn't take much to ding them. Dry firing a C&B even once is a no no. A perfect fit wouldn't let the hammer touch the nipple but that's a little much to ask for guns that are mass produced with little or no hand fitting. I'd just file off the overhang and let it go but if you're careful and good with a file you can reface the hammer so it doesn't touch the nipple but will still reliably fire caps. I'd have a backup hammer on hand before I did it tho............Just in case.

July 23, 2009, 01:01 PM	#4
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Doc I've seen that before on a used Remington I bought. It's an indentation in the hammer itself. That CCH isn't real.

July 23, 2009, 02:22 PM	#9
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	I have worked on a few Remingtons, mostly Pietta's. They tend to have a soft hammer face. They tend to deform the nose of the nipples if dry fired. (Are Pietta nipples softer than others??) I dress the end of the nipples and face the hammer for few thousandth clearance, then harden it. Also it's not unusual to see the nipple ring on the hammer face off center, quite a bit on some.

July 23, 2009, 02:32 PM	#10
kflach Registration in progress Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 99	Mine is a Pietta. I stopped dry firing as soon as I read something about it in one of the zillion forums/articles I came across. This is probably a very stupid question, but are the caps considered ordinance? How would I determine if it was legal to do a test in my back yard in the suburbs (obviously only the caps and absolutely nothing else in the cylinder)?

July 23, 2009, 03:23 PM	#11
Deadguy Member Join Date: April 17, 2008 Location: WI Posts: 93	If you are firing just the caps to test it, you can do so safely inside your garage (just have a window open and a fan blowing, as the caps do contain lead in the priming compound). Then you won't have to worry about neighbors seeing anything to complain about.

July 23, 2009, 03:42 PM	#14
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Deadguy plus 1 kflach, You might want to warn your neighbors as well. (Unless they are ignorant, whiney, bleeding heart liberal, commie, pinko, shake-in-their-boots, doofus, Taliban, nerds who are afraid of their own shadow and call 911 every time they turn over a thousand miles on the odometer in their car.) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 23, 2009, 03:44 PM	#15
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Colt designs have a slot in the hammer that is bad about getting caps lodged in it but I can't recall ever having a cap or part of a cap stick to the hammer of a Remington. BTW the hammer on that .36 rests solidly on the nipples. Remove the cylinder and the hammer will drop another 1/16 of an inch or so. It won't fit inside the safety notches either. I really need to dress it up some. Beautiful case colors on it but is soft.

July 23, 2009, 04:01 PM	#16
kflach Registration in progress Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 99	Is there a way to check how the hammer rests over the nipples/cap on a Remington? The top strap kind of gets in the way.

July 23, 2009, 04:10 PM	#17
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Mine is pretty obvious. You can tell just by looking at it. I never tried to measure one before.

July 24, 2009, 08:53 AM	#19
kflach Registration in progress Join Date: July 15, 2009 Location: DFW, Texas Posts: 99	Thank goodness none of my nipples look like that! As far as filing the extra metal sticking off the side of the hammer, is there a specific file I should use?

July 24, 2009, 09:41 AM	#20
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	Again, the question is how much are you going to shoot the gun. If 50-100 shots is all that the gun will ever receive then don't worry about the nipple hammer/interface. If 50 shots is going to be a weekly thing then it is a cause for concern. To determine how much the hammer is striking the nipples: Lower the hammer onto a cylinder with nipples of your choice installed. With a sharp soft lead pencil mark the side of the hammer where it disappears behind the frame. Remove the cylinder and lower the hammer again. Mark the hammer again. In an ideal world the two marks should be on top of each other. If not then the difference between the two marks is the amount of hammer face that should be removed. Take it in very small steps with a very fine file keeping the new surface parallel to the old. I used printers ink on the hammer face and lowered it onto the nipples until I saw no contact between the nipple and the hammer. (The sides of the hammer on a Remington should bottom out on the side of the frame, the hammer on the Colt copies should bottom out on the back of the frame in the hammer slot.) You are dealing with a file stroke or two being too much or too little so be careful. I had a pair of Remingtons that would destroy a set of TRESO nipples in one cowboy match. After trimming the hammers, they ran using the same set of nipples for over a year. Nipples that are slightly mushroomed can be dressed down to original shape by chucking the nipple(threaded portion chucked into the drill) into a cordless drill and turning the mushroomed portion of the nipple slowly onto a fine file. Cordless drill because the RPMs are slow enough that the chance of taking too much off is slight. If you don't feel comfortable working on your own guns then find a good gunsmith. I work on my guns continually. I have found my self reordering parts on occasion because I have screwed up. It takes me longer than a trip to the gunsmith but I know what has been done to my guns.