Encore won't shoot !

Old Stony · May 31, 2013, 01:00 PM

I'm new to the forum and looking for someone with experience with the Encore. I recently bought what looked like a really nice stainless Encore in 7/08. I am an old hand at firearms and own many and have reloaded extensively for many many years. I was only getting about 2" groups using some Winchester Supreme ammo I had at only 50 yards. I loaded up 120 grain hornadys and have tried Sierra 140's in flat base and boattails. I have run the gamut of loads using IMR 4895 and Winchester 760 and still can't get it to shoot under the 2" 50 yd. groups. I have been using the shorter range to try developing loads, but can't seem to get anything to group out of this rifle. I am considering either buying another barrel to try or scrapping the whole project. I own many bolt guns but was hoping to get the TC to shoot. The barrel crown seems great and I can't see where there are any issues with function of the rifle....it just shoots crappy. Any suggestions?

George Hill · May 31, 2013, 01:21 PM

There are a couple things not in your favor with the Encore.
1. They have poor triggers. This isn't helping accuracy by any means.
2. Sometimes TC puts out a real dog of a barrel.

Either case, you will be well served by going here:
http://matchgrademachine.com/
With a new barrel, your TC will shoot a lot better. With some trigger work, you should easily be able to see groups around 1" and maybe better.

taylorce1 · May 31, 2013, 04:12 PM

Have you checked the scope and mounts? I'd check the mounts first, then I'd try a different scope one to be known as a good scope.

Old Stony · May 31, 2013, 05:51 PM

I've had two different scopes on the barrel, with the latest being a 4x12 Nikon. All is tight with the scope and mounts. I've tried to eliminate all the mechanical variables I can think of. I'm an old codger and not new to the shooting world. I owned a gun shop for years in the land of fruits and nuts, and I'm still a very active shooter. I am thinking maybe my best bet is just to send in the barrel to S&W and see what their thoughts might be. I shot Contenders for years in the pistol silhouette game and never had an accuracy problem with any of them, but the Encore is new to me.

big al hunter · May 31, 2013, 06:24 PM

Have you checked for even torque on the forearm screws?

And was this gun new or used? If it was used have you cleaned all of the copper fouling out of the barrel.

I agree that 2 inches at 50 yds is far under the normal performance. My Encore puts 'em at that at 200 yds most of the time, the rest of the time is probably me

Sounds like you probably already did these things but figured it might have been forgotten.

taylorce1 · May 31, 2013, 06:48 PM

I wasn't questioning your firearms background, just asking a simple question about the scope and mounts since you didn't list that as one of the things you mentioned in your post. I don't have a great amount of experience with Encore rifles I've only owned one. However since it is a beefed up Contender, I'd think the tricks you know to get one of them to shoot would work on an Encore.

Scopes okay, you've tried swapping it out to no avail.

Another suggested trigger work, my rifle has an excellent trigger but it was worked over before I ever received it. My Encore has a trigger job done by Ed's T/C out of OK, so I have no idea on the factory trigger. The trigger is so light and crisp I'd call it almost dangerous to use hunting. I probably would have it fixed if it wasn't on a single shot rifle. But I don't know if a trigger is your problem or not.

Maybe an oversized hinge pin, which will make it lock up tighter? Again this is another unknown to me as I haven't had any problem finding acceptable accuracy with any of the barrels I've tried with the factory hinge pin. I really don't know how much the forearm screws affect accuracy, I sure don't torque mine. Again no problems finding accuracy that I can be happy with.

That leaves the barrel, and ammunition being used. Since you've tried hand loads and factory with no noticeable change in group size. I'd tend to lean towards a crap barrel.

ammo.crafter · May 31, 2013, 06:53 PM

contact Mike Bellm. he is the Contender/Encore guru.

reynolds357 · May 31, 2013, 09:06 PM

Change primers. Hard primers can play hell on an Encore; try Federal. Check headspace. Reload using fireformed neck sized brass. Oversized hinge pin might help. Pillar bed foreend might help.

hoghunting · June 1, 2013, 12:16 AM

Try using different powders as you've only used two. I have a 7-30 Waters Contender that wouldn't group well until I used RL-15, the 6th powder that I tried, then 1/2" groups were normal.

mxsailor803 · June 1, 2013, 01:35 AM

Does the crown show any damage? Just another thought before you buy a new barrel.

Old Stony · June 1, 2013, 02:50 AM

I think I will just have to pack up the barrel and send it in for warranty and see what they have to say. I doubt they will need the frame as it works just fine and lock up seems normal. The factory triggers would be a lot better had they had made them adjustable like the Contenders, but mine is acceptable with a clean break at 5 lbs. and of course the overtravel is adjustable. I don't think custom work is really needed here, just a barrel that will perform. I love the size and handling capabilities of the Encore as I am in and out of a vehicle multiple times daily with one as I check hog traps and trapse around the woods. I'll pack it up monday and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for all the input...

Brian Pfleuger · June 1, 2013, 08:22 AM

Any of the suggestions above would be fine for "fine-tuning" accuracy but a rough trigger or loose hinge pin is never going to make you shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. That kind of performance suggests that something is physically wrong.

I'd suggest slugging the barrel, perhaps. See if you detect any exceptionally tight or loose spots.

If you haven't done so, at the very least look down the barrel with a bright light at the other end, see if there's anything obvious.

Check for throat wear by measuring with a Hornady OAL gage, a bullet on a dowel or with the break-action you can just drop a bullet in the chamber and measure down to it's base with calipers. The numbers you get in an Encore with these methods aren't strictly correct, as you have to correct for the gap between the barrel and frame but it's close enough to tell you if it's normal.

There are several things in the Encore world that can effect accuracy that really don't apply to "ordinary" guns but I know of nothing that comes close to making you shoot 4 MOA.

tango1niner · June 1, 2013, 08:40 AM

what is the twist of the rifiling?

NoSecondBest · June 1, 2013, 11:23 AM

Brian gave you the best advice so far. I was only going to say what he already did. He's spot on.

bigwrench · June 1, 2013, 08:38 PM

Having the same issue with an encore chambered in 204 Ruger. After much research into encore acurizing it seems that for every peice of advise from an "encore specialist" their seems to be another guru who has contradicting advice. Leeding me to the following conclusions. What works to make one gun shoot well may not work on another. There are some guns that do not lock up tight enough, but oversized hinge pins kinda take away some of the utility of the Encore. I bought mine for diversity in chamberings and barrel lengths ect.. So here is what i did to make mine shoot better. First off the stock screw in mine was a little to long and was alowing movement in the stock. An appropriate size washer and some shims made of the clear packaging that a bore snake came in tightened right up. And a trip to the range showed noticable improvement. Next came the loose lock up. I decided not to mess with the hinge pin and tryed a differant approach. Measuring the thickness in the barrel lug, and then the gap in the reciever at the pin area I made shims to fit both sides of the barrel lug effectively removing all side to side movement of the barrel when the rifle is closed and locked. This made a huge improvement to the rifles acuracy. Now that the grouping had tightened up I could see that I had noticeable verticle stringing. I installed some nylon pillars into the for arm and still had to remove a lot of material from in front of the front for arm screw to aleviate contact with the barrel. All of these things made big improvement to the acuracy of my rifle but in the end I still ended up with a crappy barrel with a miss aligned chambering. But, my Encore shot much worse than what you are describing with yours before I started. Sorry for the wordy post!

reynolds357 · June 1, 2013, 08:50 PM

Brian, I am not sure about the Encore, but a mis fit hinge pin on a Contender literally turns it into a scatter gun. With each reloading, it compounds upon itsself because with each firing the brass gets more and more out of whack.

Doyle · June 1, 2013, 09:16 PM

You really need to check out Mike Bellm's site. You could have a loose hinge pin or bad headspace. Bellm's site tells you how to check.

kahrguy · June 3, 2013, 08:39 AM

Used but nice handgun?? Maybe those rifling is not that good, As do to fouling?? How about running a box of mild factory 140gr thru it to see whats up with that first.

reynolds357 · June 3, 2013, 03:33 PM

Kahr Guy, with all due respect, that barrel would shoot under 2 at 50 if it were solid orange, assuming the headspace and hinge pin are correct.

O.P. How does the group look? Its not by chance a vertical string is it? A vertical string is easy to fix on an Encore.

Old Stony · June 4, 2013, 05:30 AM

The groups were random, and no discerable stringing either vertical or horizontal.....just all over. This is my first Encore, but I have owned probably a dozen different Contenders over the years dating back to a time when the 30 Herrett first hit the market. I have had one bad barrel in all that time and it had an obvious problem with the chamber, and was replaced by TC. I caarry a rifle with me 7 days a week and use it for everything from Hogs, coons, beavers and other varmits that wreak havoc in an area I take care of. Yeah I know one rifle might be a little overkill for some of the varmits and underkill for others, but that's just the way it has to be. I would like the 7/08 to shoot right in the package size of an Encore possible, but for my purposes I don't want to necesssarily resort to a custom target version...I just want it to shoot a reasonable group. I shot my 300th hog with an original Winchester 1873 in 44/40 that still shoots better than the TC.
I sent in the complete rifle to Smith & Wesson yesterday to see if they could get to the bottom of the problem.

reynolds357 · June 4, 2013, 08:50 PM

Be sure to post what the problem was when you find out. I am Curious. I doubt S.W. will actually tell you, but if they do please post back with it.

340 Weatherby · June 5, 2013, 08:25 PM

It's going to be interesting to find out what the factory has to say about this weapon. Single shots can really be a bitch or they can be the neatest gun you'll ever own. I'm betting the barrel has major issues with the chamber concentricity to the bore.

kahrguy · June 7, 2013, 06:31 AM

reynolds357 Till the op figures it out your view of this is as worthless as mine is.

Nimrod2 · June 7, 2013, 09:44 AM

I'm having the same problem with a new Encore Pro Hunter in SS & 35 Whelen.
I love the rifle but 4" at 100 yards just isn't acceptable. Will be looking for an update on this problem.
Good luck.

Doyle · June 7, 2013, 09:55 AM

Nimrod, .35 Whelens are frequently a problem for Encores. That is because the shoulder on them is so small that any headspace issue is exagerated. I've been learning about this cartrige in the Encore because I may be looking for one in the near future. What I found is that this is one where you may have to handload and play around with letting the case stretch a bit (or just the opposite and resize it a little shorter) to get the head at just the right distance from the breech face.

May 31, 2013, 01:00 PM	#1
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Encore won't shoot ! I'm new to the forum and looking for someone with experience with the Encore. I recently bought what looked like a really nice stainless Encore in 7/08. I am an old hand at firearms and own many and have reloaded extensively for many many years. I was only getting about 2" groups using some Winchester Supreme ammo I had at only 50 yards. I loaded up 120 grain hornadys and have tried Sierra 140's in flat base and boattails. I have run the gamut of loads using IMR 4895 and Winchester 760 and still can't get it to shoot under the 2" 50 yd. groups. I have been using the shorter range to try developing loads, but can't seem to get anything to group out of this rifle. I am considering either buying another barrel to try or scrapping the whole project. I own many bolt guns but was hoping to get the TC to shoot. The barrel crown seems great and I can't see where there are any issues with function of the rifle....it just shoots crappy. Any suggestions?

May 31, 2013, 01:21 PM	#2
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	There are a couple things not in your favor with the Encore. 1. They have poor triggers. This isn't helping accuracy by any means. 2. Sometimes TC puts out a real dog of a barrel. Either case, you will be well served by going here: http://matchgrademachine.com/ With a new barrel, your TC will shoot a lot better. With some trigger work, you should easily be able to see groups around 1" and maybe better. __________________ MAD OGRE

May 31, 2013, 04:12 PM	#3
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,242	Have you checked the scope and mounts? I'd check the mounts first, then I'd try a different scope one to be known as a good scope. __________________ NRA Life Member

May 31, 2013, 05:51 PM	#4
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Done it I've had two different scopes on the barrel, with the latest being a 4x12 Nikon. All is tight with the scope and mounts. I've tried to eliminate all the mechanical variables I can think of. I'm an old codger and not new to the shooting world. I owned a gun shop for years in the land of fruits and nuts, and I'm still a very active shooter. I am thinking maybe my best bet is just to send in the barrel to S&W and see what their thoughts might be. I shot Contenders for years in the pistol silhouette game and never had an accuracy problem with any of them, but the Encore is new to me.

May 31, 2013, 06:24 PM	#5
big al hunter Senior Member Join Date: March 12, 2011 Location: Washington state Posts: 1,558	Have you checked for even torque on the forearm screws? And was this gun new or used? If it was used have you cleaned all of the copper fouling out of the barrel. I agree that 2 inches at 50 yds is far under the normal performance. My Encore puts 'em at that at 200 yds most of the time, the rest of the time is probably me Sounds like you probably already did these things but figured it might have been forgotten. __________________ You can't fix stupid....however ignorance can be cured through education!

May 31, 2013, 06:48 PM	#6
taylorce1 Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Location: On the Santa Fe Trail Posts: 8,242	I wasn't questioning your firearms background, just asking a simple question about the scope and mounts since you didn't list that as one of the things you mentioned in your post. I don't have a great amount of experience with Encore rifles I've only owned one. However since it is a beefed up Contender, I'd think the tricks you know to get one of them to shoot would work on an Encore. Scopes okay, you've tried swapping it out to no avail. Another suggested trigger work, my rifle has an excellent trigger but it was worked over before I ever received it. My Encore has a trigger job done by Ed's T/C out of OK, so I have no idea on the factory trigger. The trigger is so light and crisp I'd call it almost dangerous to use hunting. I probably would have it fixed if it wasn't on a single shot rifle. But I don't know if a trigger is your problem or not. Maybe an oversized hinge pin, which will make it lock up tighter? Again this is another unknown to me as I haven't had any problem finding acceptable accuracy with any of the barrels I've tried with the factory hinge pin. I really don't know how much the forearm screws affect accuracy, I sure don't torque mine. Again no problems finding accuracy that I can be happy with. That leaves the barrel, and ammunition being used. Since you've tried hand loads and factory with no noticeable change in group size. I'd tend to lean towards a crap barrel. __________________ NRA Life Member

May 31, 2013, 06:53 PM	#7
ammo.crafter Senior Member Join Date: June 25, 2006 Location: The Keystone State Posts: 1,970	tc contact Mike Bellm. he is the Contender/Encore guru. __________________ "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". --Thomas Jefferson

May 31, 2013, 09:06 PM	#8
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Change primers. Hard primers can play hell on an Encore; try Federal. Check headspace. Reload using fireformed neck sized brass. Oversized hinge pin might help. Pillar bed foreend might help.

June 1, 2013, 12:16 AM	#9
hoghunting Senior Member Join Date: March 27, 2006 Posts: 1,559	Try using different powders as you've only used two. I have a 7-30 Waters Contender that wouldn't group well until I used RL-15, the 6th powder that I tried, then 1/2" groups were normal.

June 1, 2013, 01:35 AM	#10
mxsailor803 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2010 Location: SC Posts: 1,344	Does the crown show any damage? Just another thought before you buy a new barrel.

June 1, 2013, 02:50 AM	#11
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	Encore won't shoot I think I will just have to pack up the barrel and send it in for warranty and see what they have to say. I doubt they will need the frame as it works just fine and lock up seems normal. The factory triggers would be a lot better had they had made them adjustable like the Contenders, but mine is acceptable with a clean break at 5 lbs. and of course the overtravel is adjustable. I don't think custom work is really needed here, just a barrel that will perform. I love the size and handling capabilities of the Encore as I am in and out of a vehicle multiple times daily with one as I check hog traps and trapse around the woods. I'll pack it up monday and keep my fingers crossed. Thanks for all the input...

June 1, 2013, 08:22 AM	#12
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Any of the suggestions above would be fine for "fine-tuning" accuracy but a rough trigger or loose hinge pin is never going to make you shoot 2" groups at 50 yards. That kind of performance suggests that something is physically wrong. I'd suggest slugging the barrel, perhaps. See if you detect any exceptionally tight or loose spots. If you haven't done so, at the very least look down the barrel with a bright light at the other end, see if there's anything obvious. Check for throat wear by measuring with a Hornady OAL gage, a bullet on a dowel or with the break-action you can just drop a bullet in the chamber and measure down to it's base with calipers. The numbers you get in an Encore with these methods aren't strictly correct, as you have to correct for the gap between the barrel and frame but it's close enough to tell you if it's normal. There are several things in the Encore world that can effect accuracy that really don't apply to "ordinary" guns but I know of nothing that comes close to making you shoot 4 MOA. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

June 1, 2013, 08:40 AM	#13
tango1niner Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: NY Posts: 317	what is the twist of the rifiling?

June 1, 2013, 11:23 AM	#14
NoSecondBest Senior Member Join Date: December 7, 2009 Location: Western New York Posts: 2,736	Brian gave you the best advice so far. I was only going to say what he already did. He's spot on.

June 1, 2013, 08:38 PM	#15
bigwrench Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Location: foot of the uintas Posts: 148	Having the same issue with an encore chambered in 204 Ruger. After much research into encore acurizing it seems that for every peice of advise from an "encore specialist" their seems to be another guru who has contradicting advice. Leeding me to the following conclusions. What works to make one gun shoot well may not work on another. There are some guns that do not lock up tight enough, but oversized hinge pins kinda take away some of the utility of the Encore. I bought mine for diversity in chamberings and barrel lengths ect.. So here is what i did to make mine shoot better. First off the stock screw in mine was a little to long and was alowing movement in the stock. An appropriate size washer and some shims made of the clear packaging that a bore snake came in tightened right up. And a trip to the range showed noticable improvement. Next came the loose lock up. I decided not to mess with the hinge pin and tryed a differant approach. Measuring the thickness in the barrel lug, and then the gap in the reciever at the pin area I made shims to fit both sides of the barrel lug effectively removing all side to side movement of the barrel when the rifle is closed and locked. This made a huge improvement to the rifles acuracy. Now that the grouping had tightened up I could see that I had noticeable verticle stringing. I installed some nylon pillars into the for arm and still had to remove a lot of material from in front of the front for arm screw to aleviate contact with the barrel. All of these things made big improvement to the acuracy of my rifle but in the end I still ended up with a crappy barrel with a miss aligned chambering. But, my Encore shot much worse than what you are describing with yours before I started. Sorry for the wordy post!

June 1, 2013, 08:50 PM	#16
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Brian, I am not sure about the Encore, but a mis fit hinge pin on a Contender literally turns it into a scatter gun. With each reloading, it compounds upon itsself because with each firing the brass gets more and more out of whack.

June 1, 2013, 09:16 PM	#17
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	You really need to check out Mike Bellm's site. You could have a loose hinge pin or bad headspace. Bellm's site tells you how to check.

June 3, 2013, 08:39 AM	#18
kahrguy Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2012 Posts: 561	Used but nice handgun?? Maybe those rifling is not that good, As do to fouling?? How about running a box of mild factory 140gr thru it to see whats up with that first.

June 3, 2013, 03:33 PM	#19
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Kahr Guy, with all due respect, that barrel would shoot under 2 at 50 if it were solid orange, assuming the headspace and hinge pin are correct. O.P. How does the group look? Its not by chance a vertical string is it? A vertical string is easy to fix on an Encore.

June 4, 2013, 05:30 AM	#20
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	The groups were random, and no discerable stringing either vertical or horizontal.....just all over. This is my first Encore, but I have owned probably a dozen different Contenders over the years dating back to a time when the 30 Herrett first hit the market. I have had one bad barrel in all that time and it had an obvious problem with the chamber, and was replaced by TC. I caarry a rifle with me 7 days a week and use it for everything from Hogs, coons, beavers and other varmits that wreak havoc in an area I take care of. Yeah I know one rifle might be a little overkill for some of the varmits and underkill for others, but that's just the way it has to be. I would like the 7/08 to shoot right in the package size of an Encore possible, but for my purposes I don't want to necesssarily resort to a custom target version...I just want it to shoot a reasonable group. I shot my 300th hog with an original Winchester 1873 in 44/40 that still shoots better than the TC. I sent in the complete rifle to Smith & Wesson yesterday to see if they could get to the bottom of the problem.

June 4, 2013, 08:50 PM	#21
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Be sure to post what the problem was when you find out. I am Curious. I doubt S.W. will actually tell you, but if they do please post back with it.

June 5, 2013, 08:25 PM	#22
340 Weatherby Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 139	It's going to be interesting to find out what the factory has to say about this weapon. Single shots can really be a bitch or they can be the neatest gun you'll ever own. I'm betting the barrel has major issues with the chamber concentricity to the bore.

June 7, 2013, 06:31 AM	#23
kahrguy Senior Member Join Date: October 1, 2012 Posts: 561	reynolds357 Till the op figures it out your view of this is as worthless as mine is.

June 7, 2013, 09:44 AM	#24
Nimrod2 Member Join Date: October 9, 2012 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 21	ditto I'm having the same problem with a new Encore Pro Hunter in SS & 35 Whelen. I love the rifle but 4" at 100 yards just isn't acceptable. Will be looking for an update on this problem. Good luck.

June 7, 2013, 09:55 AM	#25
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	Nimrod, .35 Whelens are frequently a problem for Encores. That is because the shoulder on them is so small that any headspace issue is exagerated. I've been learning about this cartrige in the Encore because I may be looking for one in the near future. What I found is that this is one where you may have to handload and play around with letting the case stretch a bit (or just the opposite and resize it a little shorter) to get the head at just the right distance from the breech face.