The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 29, 2012, 10:18 AM   #26
publius
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 25, 2005
Location: Mississippi/Texas
Posts: 2,505
Lefteye is dead on #1 buck or 0 if you can't get #1. Yes, a dove load will (probably stop) the threat at short distance. Why chance it though. I have put the load of shot and the wad of a dove load deep into the back of a rabid dogs head at about 3 yds. but you have let them get waaay to close if you are shooting at that distance. A docter brought in an x-ray to the gun shop a couple of years ago for us to look at. #4 lead at about 15 feet. He said the wound was gruesome, the guy's chest looked like hamburger but only one pellet entered his lung. The doc agreed that if he had been hopped up on drugs there is a good chance the wound would not have stopped him. Any buck is good but #1 is the perfect balance of payload and size of projectile.
__________________
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress, but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
publius is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 01:09 AM   #27
Bartholomew Roberts
member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 8,462
I had a chance to sit down and talk with an officer who was shot in the upper right torso with a load of birdshot from 15' (no body armor - off duty). It left a large ugly wound; but because he was partially turned when it hit, his arm took a lot of the blast and he was left with a really gruesome looking wound with few pellets penetrating to the torso and none hitting anything vital. So gruesome looking that when he walked over to a neighbor's house to ask them to call 911, his neighbor freaked out and he made the call himself. It was a wake up call to me that such a thing could happen and as I read more on the subject, I understood how.

If I thought someone was an immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury to myself or others, I think I would be concerned about using a round that left them physically able to move and communicate for 15 minutes or so.

Additionally, with birdshot, a lot of things that are only concealment from heavier shot or pistol/rifle rounds become hard cover (refrigerators, bookcases, interior walls, down or leather jackets). I would hate to be in a gunfight inside my own home where my rounds can't penetrate interior walls or furniture but the home invader's rounds can. I doubt the home invader is all that concerned about overpenetration or a safe background, so the more shooting he does, the bigger problem there is.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 03:51 AM   #28
Willie Lowman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 5, 2009
Location: Uh-Hi-O
Posts: 3,006
Quote:
Is there an assumption, in this thread, that you will only shoot once?
What if you shoot more than once, or twice or three times or...........
If the goal is to keep shooting until the threat is neutralized, wouldn't you?
There is an assumption in your post, that you will be able to shoot more than once.

What if you get shot, or your weapon malfunctions, or............

If there is a possibility that you will only get one shot to neutralize your target, why make it a less powerful one?
__________________
"9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens
Willie Lowman is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 10:48 AM   #29
Sigowner
Member
 
Join Date: March 27, 2012
Posts: 77
You might get a better perspective re comparison between birdshot and various other 12ga rounds from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXz_A...eature=related
Sigowner is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 11:47 AM   #30
FireForged
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 4, 1999
Location: Rebel South USA
Posts: 2,074
I chose no. 1 buckshot by simply shooting paper targets at simulated hallway/room distances and liked the pattern. If memory serves I believe its 10 or 12 pellets.
__________________
Life is a web woven by necessity and chance...
FireForged is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 12:15 PM   #31
L_Killkenny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2007
Location: Iowa
Posts: 2,676
Quote:
I've learned that bird shot won't penetrate enough in most situations to mortally wound an assailant.
What you've learned is basically false. Facts are that most of the time bird shot will mortally wound a BG hit in the chest at HD distance. Is it the best? I wouldn't say that but you're right, 1 oz of lead at 1200 feet per second is sure to leave a mark whether it be in one solid chunk or 400.

Where these threads go completely sideways is SOME try to lump all bird shot into one group and buckshot into another. They compare 00 to some lame trap load. Bird shot generally goes from #2 thru 7 1/2 or 8. You also have BB, T, F and bunch of other shot available. There's a big flippin difference between all of them. Personally I see no reason to go any bigger than 4 buck and anything thing lead or hevishot down to maybe #4 shot is bound to save the day with dramatic results. Like I said, big difference between those I mentioned and 7 1/2 dove loads.

For the record, the plastic wad will blow thru plywood more times than not from 15 feet.

LK

Last edited by L_Killkenny; May 31, 2012 at 12:21 PM.
L_Killkenny is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 12:56 PM   #32
Archer 9505
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2010
Location: Maine
Posts: 213
Quote:
Where these threads go completely sideways is SOME try to lump all bird shot into one group and buckshot into another.
I couldn't agree more. A full house load of Hevi-Shot Dead coyote is in a different category all together than a #6 field load. I think that some may opt for the larger bird shot (#2, bb, tt) over heavy buck shot (# 1, .30 cal and up) and slugs because of their concerns with over penetration. Of course I am just speaking for myself; I am more concerned about where the BG's bullets are going than about my shot over penetrating. My current choice is #1 buck, I have considered a 12 pellet 2 3/4 in magnum load of 00 buck, but currently consider #1 my best option. Not to be dramatic, but if someone is doing something that is so threatening to me or my family that my only option is to shoot them. Whatever their doing, I want them to stop immediately. I don't want to experiment with something that may work. I want to use a load that is heavy enough to smash through furniture, clothing, bone, muscle and fat, rettaining enough energy to reach vital organs. A heavy magnum load of turkey/ duck / goose shot may work. My concern is what will the foam and fabric of my couch, the muscle and bone of the assailants forearm, the fabric of his heavy winter coat and the muscle and bone of his chest leave left of that "magnum" load designed to kill a 20-40 lb animal not a 200 lb. human. One is called Bird shot and the other Buck shot for a reason.
__________________
NRA Life Member
"An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will"
It's a free country; in a free country, freedom is for more than just those that conform to the accepted.
Archer 9505 is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 09:16 PM   #33
1Hobie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2010
Location: west central Illinois
Posts: 277
I've learned a lot and am going to learn how to utilize my gun the best way I can. I'm looking for a defensive class to take and I'm going to order some DVDs in the meantime.

Let's put this thread to rest as it has turned into another long-winded I'm right you're wrong marathon.

I do appreciate all of your responses. It's given me pause to consider.

Thanks again!

Hobie...reading the "One Second After" by William Forstchen again.

Last edited by Frank Ettin; May 31, 2012 at 09:35 PM. Reason: clean up
1Hobie is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 09:16 PM   #34
Nnobby45
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2004
Posts: 3,150
Any shotgun load, even small birdshot, is lethal at close range before the shot has started to spread.
Nnobby45 is offline  
Old May 31, 2012, 09:34 PM   #35
Frank Ettin
Staff
 
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
Turning into a rehash. Let's end it.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper
Frank Ettin is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.05140 seconds with 9 queries