What is your gut feeling?

Pond, James Pond · March 1, 2012, 03:26 PM

I went to see the Marocchi AGM Defence (matt black) and AGM Mariner (matt chrome) today. They are quite short shotguns: about a metre long, say.

I attach a picture of the chrome Mariner below:

The finish looks nice, joining surfaces tight. The pump action seems smooth, the breech tight, the loading port was nice. The grip was a regular longarm type rubber-ended black polymer. The sight was a gutter along the body of the gun (receiver?), and a bead on the barrel. I didn't know what to check precisely so I just tried to look at the bits I woukd examine on a pistol: was the action smooth? (yes), was the pump action sloppy? (no, but there was a bit of play in the handle if you twisted it in your grip) how did the trigger feel? (crisp), etc.

On the barrel it read Made in Turkey, despite being an Italian brand. Unsurprisingly it is cheaper than a Rem 870 (normally about €800), or a Benelli Super 90 (€1900). It retails at €550, but is on sale with 25% off at €412. That price, the appealing looks (I love it when the cartridge tube and barrel are the same length: don't know why...), and the seemingly decent finish make it very interesting to me.

But.... it is a brand/model I've had difficulty getting any feedback on...

I am very tempted, but is this actually a good deal, a gamble or Pandora's box?

I know I won't use it that much. If I do it will be clay shooting, with a bit of target blasting on the range. Other than that, yes, possible HD, but no more likely than any of my other hardware.

Really, I just want people's general gut instinct based on what I've described.

Does it have potential, or does anything ring alarm bells?

PetahW · March 1, 2012, 03:55 PM

Guns made in Turkey are usually exactly that: Turkey's.

Spotty heat treat, soft parts, unobtamium parts - whatever.

The bitterness of their poor quality will remain long after the sweetness of their low price is forgotten.

Save yourself the aggrivation - Buy the 870 - The higher price will be long forgotten, after many trouble-free years of service.

.

Dave McC · March 2, 2012, 02:27 PM

870.

Known quality.

Guaranteed parts availability for the next century or so.

Aftermarket goodies in abundance.

Known quality.

Working life of about 250,000 rounds.

Did I mention known quality?.....

doctor_brevic · March 2, 2012, 03:24 PM

I dunno guys, I have a weatherby pa-08 upland. "Made in Turkey" I compare it to my 870s and the weatherby is definately smoother and a whole heck of a lot tighter fitting. Beautiful gun, never failed me yet. What concerns me a little bit about this picture is that the reciever on this shotgun is shaped a whole lot like the weatherby, just a little bit more bulky looking in the back, and if I am seeing it correctly it seems like maybe the slide release is in the same spot as my weatherby as well, Up front on the trigger guard and on the ejection side of the gun. Then there is the fact that it is made in turkey as well, is it at all possible that these are made in the same factory? If it is anywhere near as nice as my pa-08 upland then I would definately go for it but I can't say what you should do because I'm not holding the gun, I can't feel the action from here

Pond, James Pond · March 3, 2012, 02:40 AM

Quote:

and if I am seeing it correctly it seems like maybe the slide release is in the same spot as my weatherby as well, Up front on the trigger guard and on the ejection side of the gun.

Now, I can't say what purpose it served, but the tab you can see toward the front of the trigger guard was like some kind of bladed tab, that seemed to slide forward or back, with a couple of symbols stamped on the body of the gun. I was not able to move it by hand, but I heard it click, either when I pump the slide or when I pulled the trigger.

Can't remember which as I was not expecting anything like that to happen....

TheKlawMan · March 3, 2012, 03:27 AM

How long is the barrel and your primary use will be to shoot clays? Besides all the beneifits listed by Dave, I would think a Remington with a vent rib barrel would be better for clays.

Pond, James Pond · March 3, 2012, 04:47 AM

Quote:

How long is the barrel and your primary use will be to shoot clays? Besides all the beneifits listed by Dave, I would think a Remington with a vent rib barrel would be better for clays.

The barrel was about 25-30 inches (51CM). After all, Marocchi do pitch it as a combat shotgun...

If I am honest, I just really like pumps and I really like the look of that type. I would not be buying it to shoot clays, but I would shoot clays with it, if I bought it.
Make sense?

I can be an impetuous buyer, but not so much that I buy something without a possible use, especially when we are into triple figure prices!!

Likewise, I would not buy something that looks great, if I know the quality/reliability to be bad.

So, I have found a shotgun that makes my salivary glands very active, and makes me grin when I hold it, but I will happily walk away if it is a shoddy piece of manufacturing or something that I will need to treat with kid gloves.

The flip side is, because I realise this is a purchase I would make on sizeably emotional grounds, I would be reluctant to shell out a lot of money. If I were going to compete., it would be a different story...

However, if I buy it I will use it, although perhaps not on an overly frequent basis.

As I don't hunt, and don't habitually have break-ins or home invasions, that leaves clay shooting!!

On the plus side I have shot clays in the past and I was pretty OK at it (I was in my teens), so at least I know it is something I enjoy!!

Sarge · March 3, 2012, 06:56 AM

I'll second Dave on all he said in post #3.

Pond, James Pond · March 3, 2012, 09:32 AM

Nice as it may be, an 870 is €340 more expensive than this reduced price Marocchi.

That is a lot of cash.

As you will see from my reasons for buying in post #7, spending that on a gun that would be more of an indulgence than buying with a set use in mind is not within my means

TheKlawMan · March 3, 2012, 02:30 PM

That you are buying in Euros and located in the Baltic suggests why the price is approximately $1100 (U.S.). The same gun runs half of that in the States at full price and can be had for $350. when it is on sale. Does the 870 go on sale there?

As for 870 knock offs, there are several for sale here for around $200 that you may want to look into. All are manufactured in China, icluding the NEF/H&R Pardner, Stevens 350, and the Norinco or Hawk.

Someting in between the Chinese made shotguns and the Remington (for even more bucks is the Browning) is the Mossberg 500 or its less expensive sibling, the Maverick 88. There are approximately as many happy Mossberg 500 owners as there are Remington 870 owners.

Some would opt for a used gun before going with an inferior model.

My point is that when price is a consideration, is it is for most of us, you don't have to buy poor quality.

Pond, James Pond · March 3, 2012, 03:36 PM

Thanks for the pointers, Klawman.

The biggest frustration for me is the limitation of choice in the products available.

Estonia is a lovely but teeny country and we are slammed by a combination of small market prices and small market choice. It is not financially viable for so many brands to be imported. I have not yet seen a Mossberg advertised.

I almost bought a Saiga 12 recently, so they are an option. Benelli are popular here, Remington are also around, as well as some Turkish brands and Izh (Sp?) and Baikal, for obvious reasons.

Shame that this gun does not seem to evoke much enthusiasm/confidence but, as I explained in post 7, I'm not taking a €412 punt!!

Still, if these models you mentioned turn up with some sort of dealer support, I'll know to consider them carefully!

March 1, 2012, 03:26 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	What is your gut feeling? I went to see the Marocchi AGM Defence (matt black) and AGM Mariner (matt chrome) today. They are quite short shotguns: about a metre long, say. I attach a picture of the chrome Mariner below: The finish looks nice, joining surfaces tight. The pump action seems smooth, the breech tight, the loading port was nice. The grip was a regular longarm type rubber-ended black polymer. The sight was a gutter along the body of the gun (receiver?), and a bead on the barrel. I didn't know what to check precisely so I just tried to look at the bits I woukd examine on a pistol: was the action smooth? (yes), was the pump action sloppy? (no, but there was a bit of play in the handle if you twisted it in your grip) how did the trigger feel? (crisp), etc. On the barrel it read Made in Turkey, despite being an Italian brand. Unsurprisingly it is cheaper than a Rem 870 (normally about €800), or a Benelli Super 90 (€1900). It retails at €550, but is on sale with 25% off at €412. That price, the appealing looks (I love it when the cartridge tube and barrel are the same length: don't know why...), and the seemingly decent finish make it very interesting to me. But.... it is a brand/model I've had difficulty getting any feedback on... I am very tempted, but is this actually a good deal, a gamble or Pandora's box? I know I won't use it that much. If I do it will be clay shooting, with a bit of target blasting on the range. Other than that, yes, possible HD, but no more likely than any of my other hardware. Really, I just want people's general gut instinct based on what I've described. Does it have potential, or does anything ring alarm bells? __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; March 1, 2012 at 03:51 PM.

March 3, 2012, 06:56 AM	#8
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	I'll second Dave on all he said in post #3. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

March 3, 2012, 09:32 AM	#9
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Nice as it may be, an 870 is €340 more expensive than this reduced price Marocchi. That is a lot of cash. As you will see from my reasons for buying in post #7, spending that on a gun that would be more of an indulgence than buying with a set use in mind is not within my means __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

March 3, 2012, 03:36 PM	#11
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	Thanks for the pointers, Klawman. The biggest frustration for me is the limitation of choice in the products available. Estonia is a lovely but teeny country and we are slammed by a combination of small market prices and small market choice. It is not financially viable for so many brands to be imported. I have not yet seen a Mossberg advertised. I almost bought a Saiga 12 recently, so they are an option. Benelli are popular here, Remington are also around, as well as some Turkish brands and Izh (Sp?) and Baikal, for obvious reasons. Shame that this gun does not seem to evoke much enthusiasm/confidence but, as I explained in post 7, I'm not taking a €412 punt!! Still, if these models you mentioned turn up with some sort of dealer support, I'll know to consider them carefully! __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

March 1, 2012, 03:55 PM	#2
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	Guns made in Turkey are usually exactly that: Turkey's. Spotty heat treat, soft parts, unobtamium parts - whatever. The bitterness of their poor quality will remain long after the sweetness of their low price is forgotten. Save yourself the aggrivation - Buy the 870 - The higher price will be long forgotten, after many trouble-free years of service. .

March 2, 2012, 02:27 PM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	870. Known quality. Guaranteed parts availability for the next century or so. Aftermarket goodies in abundance. Known quality. Working life of about 250,000 rounds. Did I mention known quality?.....

March 2, 2012, 03:24 PM	#4
doctor_brevic Member Join Date: August 19, 2011 Posts: 74	I dunno guys, I have a weatherby pa-08 upland. "Made in Turkey" I compare it to my 870s and the weatherby is definately smoother and a whole heck of a lot tighter fitting. Beautiful gun, never failed me yet. What concerns me a little bit about this picture is that the reciever on this shotgun is shaped a whole lot like the weatherby, just a little bit more bulky looking in the back, and if I am seeing it correctly it seems like maybe the slide release is in the same spot as my weatherby as well, Up front on the trigger guard and on the ejection side of the gun. Then there is the fact that it is made in turkey as well, is it at all possible that these are made in the same factory? If it is anywhere near as nice as my pa-08 upland then I would definately go for it but I can't say what you should do because I'm not holding the gun, I can't feel the action from here

March 3, 2012, 03:27 AM	#6
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	How long is the barrel and your primary use will be to shoot clays? Besides all the beneifits listed by Dave, I would think a Remington with a vent rib barrel would be better for clays.

March 3, 2012, 02:30 PM	#10
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	That you are buying in Euros and located in the Baltic suggests why the price is approximately $1100 (U.S.). The same gun runs half of that in the States at full price and can be had for $350. when it is on sale. Does the 870 go on sale there? As for 870 knock offs, there are several for sale here for around $200 that you may want to look into. All are manufactured in China, icluding the NEF/H&R Pardner, Stevens 350, and the Norinco or Hawk. Someting in between the Chinese made shotguns and the Remington (for even more bucks is the Browning) is the Mossberg 500 or its less expensive sibling, the Maverick 88. There are approximately as many happy Mossberg 500 owners as there are Remington 870 owners. Some would opt for a used gun before going with an inferior model. My point is that when price is a consideration, is it is for most of us, you don't have to buy poor quality.