Suppressor noob questions

lockedcj7 · May 26, 2016, 07:26 PM

Soooo I've owned a .22 suppressor for many years and I enjoy it very much but it's a tool, not a hobby in and of itself for me. I just took possession of a .45 can and it has some quirks. I've only shot it on an older Sig P220 with a brand-new threaded barrel and with one brand of ammo.

Without the suppressor installed, the pistol functions flawlessly and flings the cases with authority. With the can, the action barely cycles enough to eject the spent case at my feet (or in my face). It frequently does not return to battery and the gun fires on the second strike.

Surely someone has seen this before? Obviously, I will try another brand of ammo, lube and break-in the barrel but I find this odd. Shouldn't there be more back-pressure with the can? It seems like there's less.

444 · May 26, 2016, 09:01 PM

Does the suppressor have a booster ?

It sort of sounds like it does. You don't need one on the Sig.

What suppressor is it ?

http://www.advanced-armament.com/20-...ces_df_54.html

In case you don't know what I am talking about.

Theohazard · May 27, 2016, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 444

Does the suppressor have a booster ?

It sort of sounds like it does. You don't need one on the Sig.

You do need a booster on a SIG P220, and that's because it uses a modified Browning locked-breech action like most modern centerfire pistol designs do. The only time you don't need a booster when running a silencer on that type of pistol is when it's a tiny one like the Degroat Nano.

Lockedcj7, it's difficult to begin to help you troubleshoot your problem until we know what make and model of silencer you're using. Until then, the only advice I can give you is to take apart the booster assembly (also called a piston, Neilsen device, or a LID), lube it up, and re-assemble it. Many silencer companies ship their silencers with zero lube in the piston assembly, but it often needs lube to properly function.

Theohazard · May 27, 2016, 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockedcj7

Shouldn't there be more back-pressure with the can? It seems like there's less.

Since it's not gas operated, extra back-pressure doesn't make much difference. But the extra weight on your locked-breech tip-up barrel does make a difference, but in a negative way. So without a properly-functioning piston assembly to counteract that weight (or if you're using under-powered ammo), your pistol won't reliably cycle.

444 · May 27, 2016, 03:11 AM

Obviously, I disagree.

Theohazard · May 27, 2016, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 444

Obviously, I disagree.

What makes you think that a SIG P220 doesn't need a booster? I'm just curious where you came up with this.

Theohazard · May 27, 2016, 03:52 AM

444, I realize we may be talking past each other here. If you're trying to say that a suppressed P220 can still sometimes function without a booster, then you're right. If the can isn't too heavy and the ammo is stout enough, it may still cycle properly despite the extra weight on the end of the barrel. I've seen full-size yet still lightweight .45 silencers like the 45 Osprey function on tilt-barrel semi-autos even when the booster assembly was so dirty that it was seized up, but it just barely functioned. In contrast, I shot a heavy 9mm silencer (a Liberty Mystic X) on my Glock 19 without a booster and it wouldn't even unlock from battery at all. I've also seen many cases where overly-dirty booster assemblies caused cycling issues in all sorts of tilt-barrel semi-autos, especially with lower-powered ammo.

So when I say that a suppressed P220 needs a booster, I mean that it needs a booster to cycle reliably with a silencer, especially with lower-pressure ammo. But yes, it's possible that it might cycle without one given the right circumstances.

Mobuck · May 27, 2016, 06:04 AM

" Shouldn't there be more back-pressure with the can? It seems like there's less."
That's NOT how a non-gas operated system works.

lockedcj7 · May 27, 2016, 05:37 PM

Right. I've spent too many years shooting .22s and gas operated shotguns, I guess.

"Lube" was the correct answer. (Isn't it always?) The instructions pamphlet didn't say anything about lubricating the booster and it was bone dry. I also forgot that Sigs often like to be run wet. I greased up the gun and booster to see if one or the other would fix the problem and viola.

It flung cases like before and functioned 100% with Blazer Brass and Tulammo steel.

FWIW- The suppressor is an Innovative Arms Shepherd .45 and the ammo is Blazer Brass 230 gr. ball. I don't have any way to objectively measure dB but I'm very happy with it. I wouldn't call it "hearing safe" but it sounds like a nail gun instead of a .45

Very, Very happy

BTW - what grease or oil should I be using?

Theohazard · May 27, 2016, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lockedcj7

Right. Wasn't thinking straight. FWIW- The suppressor is an Innovative Arms Shepherd .45 and the ammo is Blazer Brass 230 gr. ball.

OK, I don't know much about that silencer, but I just looked up their website. It looks like it includes a fixed-barrel spacer (that's usually just a cylindrical piece of metal that replaces the booster spring when you're using it on a fixed-barrel firearm). Make sure you're using the spring and not the fixed-barrel spacer on your P220, because otherwise the booster is disabled and the gun won't function reliably. Also, make sure the assembly is lubed up.

EDIT: It looks like you edited your post right as I was posting. Glad to hear that lube was the answer. I use Frog Lube paste on my Octane 9 booster assembly, and lots of people like white lithium grease. You can use any kind of lube you want, just keep in mind that the thinner the lube the more often it will need to be re-applied.

It especially needs to be lubed right from the factory, since most booster assemblies use rubber O-rings that bind like heck if they're bone-dry. So I guess it's pretty clear that your P220 needed a properly-functioning booster to work properly with your silencer, even though it's fairly lightweight as .45 silencers go.

lockedcj7 · May 27, 2016, 06:40 PM

I used white lithium just because that's what was closest to my hand but wasn't sure if it was good enough. Thanks!

Sharkbite · May 27, 2016, 09:59 PM

Theo,

When your 9mm osprey wouldnt unlock the barrel (unlubed?) it basically became a locked breach, straight pull bolt action (kinda)... Anyway, did it seem any quieter without the action running?

I guess im asking if putting a fixed barrel spacer into my can and just shooting it as a single shot would make it quieter.

Theohazard · May 28, 2016, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

When your 9mm osprey wouldnt unlock the barrel (unlubed?) it basically became a locked breach, straight pull bolt action (kinda)... Anyway, did it seem any quieter without the action running?

Well, the 45 Osprey was a customer's, and he was running it on a Glock 21. I showed him how to take the piston assembly apart and clean it, and he told me he didn't realize it was supposed to be cleaned. It was completely filthy and unlubed and was most likely not functioning when fired, but the gun was still cycling, though not very strongly. I don't know whether the gun cycled because there was still a little bit of movement in the piston assembly or whether the Glock 21 had enough of a recoil impulse to overcome the 11 oz. of weight on the end of the barrel.

The time I shot a Liberty Mystic X on my Glock 19 with no booster at all, the gun wouldn't even unlock at all. It was noticeably quieter than normal since there was no gas coming out of the chamber and there was zero slide movement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sharkbite

I guess im asking if putting a fixed barrel spacer into my can and just shooting it as a single shot would make it quieter.

Yes, but you don't need a fixed-barrel spacer to do that with some pistols. With my Glock 19 and my Octane 9, I can push against the back of the slide with my support thumb and it doesn't cycle at all. You just have to make sure you push hard and keep it locked in battery, otherwise it's going to hurt if it manages to come out of battery and start to cycle with your thumb in the way. My buddy uses his strong-hand thumb instead and it's easier to do, but I find it negatively affects my shooting more.

This method actually requires about the same (or maybe even less) pressure than holding the bolt shut on a Ruger MKIII, and that's because the Glock has a locked-breech system; as long as you apply enough pressure to keep the gun locked in battery, you don't take the full force of the recoil on your thumb like you would with a straight blowback system.

May 26, 2016, 07:26 PM	#1
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	Suppressor noob questions Soooo I've owned a .22 suppressor for many years and I enjoy it very much but it's a tool, not a hobby in and of itself for me. I just took possession of a .45 can and it has some quirks. I've only shot it on an older Sig P220 with a brand-new threaded barrel and with one brand of ammo. Without the suppressor installed, the pistol functions flawlessly and flings the cases with authority. With the can, the action barely cycles enough to eject the spent case at my feet (or in my face). It frequently does not return to battery and the gun fires on the second strike. Surely someone has seen this before? Obviously, I will try another brand of ammo, lube and break-in the barrel but I find this odd. Shouldn't there be more back-pressure with the can? It seems like there's less. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

May 26, 2016, 09:01 PM	#2
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Does the suppressor have a booster ? It sort of sounds like it does. You don't need one on the Sig. What suppressor is it ? http://www.advanced-armament.com/20-...ces_df_54.html In case you don't know what I am talking about. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load. Last edited by 444; May 26, 2016 at 09:57 PM.

May 27, 2016, 03:11 AM	#5
444 Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,968	Obviously, I disagree. __________________ You know the rest. In the books you have read How the British Regulars fired and fled, How the farmers gave them ball for ball, From behind each fence and farmyard wall, Chasing the redcoats down the lane, Then crossing the fields to emerge again Under the trees at the turn of the road, And only pausing to fire and load.

May 27, 2016, 03:52 AM	#7
Theohazard Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2012 Location: Western PA Posts: 3,829	444, I realize we may be talking past each other here. If you're trying to say that a suppressed P220 can still sometimes function without a booster, then you're right. If the can isn't too heavy and the ammo is stout enough, it may still cycle properly despite the extra weight on the end of the barrel. I've seen full-size yet still lightweight .45 silencers like the 45 Osprey function on tilt-barrel semi-autos even when the booster assembly was so dirty that it was seized up, but it just barely functioned. In contrast, I shot a heavy 9mm silencer (a Liberty Mystic X) on my Glock 19 without a booster and it wouldn't even unlock from battery at all. I've also seen many cases where overly-dirty booster assemblies caused cycling issues in all sorts of tilt-barrel semi-autos, especially with lower-powered ammo. So when I say that a suppressed P220 needs a booster, I mean that it needs a booster to cycle reliably with a silencer, especially with lower-pressure ammo. But yes, it's possible that it might cycle without one given the right circumstances. __________________ 0331: "Accuracy by volume." Last edited by Theohazard; May 27, 2016 at 04:42 AM.

May 27, 2016, 05:37 PM	#9
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	Right. I've spent too many years shooting .22s and gas operated shotguns, I guess. "Lube" was the correct answer. (Isn't it always?) The instructions pamphlet didn't say anything about lubricating the booster and it was bone dry. I also forgot that Sigs often like to be run wet. I greased up the gun and booster to see if one or the other would fix the problem and viola. It flung cases like before and functioned 100% with Blazer Brass and Tulammo steel. FWIW- The suppressor is an Innovative Arms Shepherd .45 and the ammo is Blazer Brass 230 gr. ball. I don't have any way to objectively measure dB but I'm very happy with it. I wouldn't call it "hearing safe" but it sounds like a nail gun instead of a .45 Very, Very happy BTW - what grease or oil should I be using? __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence. Last edited by lockedcj7; May 27, 2016 at 06:10 PM.

May 27, 2016, 06:04 AM	#8
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	" Shouldn't there be more back-pressure with the can? It seems like there's less." That's NOT how a non-gas operated system works.

May 27, 2016, 06:40 PM	#11
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I used white lithium just because that's what was closest to my hand but wasn't sure if it was good enough. Thanks! __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

May 27, 2016, 09:59 PM	#12
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	Theo, When your 9mm osprey wouldnt unlock the barrel (unlubed?) it basically became a locked breach, straight pull bolt action (kinda)... Anyway, did it seem any quieter without the action running? I guess im asking if putting a fixed barrel spacer into my can and just shooting it as a single shot would make it quieter.