FBI Load

[Sea Buck]

What is the"FBI Load" that I see referenced occasionally?

[AlaskaMike]

There may be something relating to a 10mm FBI load, but the one I'm most familiar with is the old .38 Special FBI load. If I remember right it was basically a +P load with a 158 grain lead SWC HP.

Mike

[armsmaster270]

Thats it issued them for years until they came out with the Treasury load .38Spl 110gr +P+ JHP.

[MDB]

They should be labeled "158gr. LSWCHP". If you find them, buy them.

[whiplash]

My wife uses that same load. Its a Winchester factory load. It really shoots good in her S&W M60.


this is the actual stock number X38SPD...

http://www.winchester.com/products/c...&use=3&type=26

[zxcvbob]

Magnus Bullets #515 with 4.3 grains of Bullseye will get you real close.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...p?sku=00051515

[GP100man]

i cast a 358156 HP as soft as i can & shoot it with 38spl loading. does this count???? it`ll dispatch a gallon of water nicely!!!!!


GP100man

[rantingredneck]

Federal's version is stock number 38G

My LCR loves them .

[Sevens]

You guys are probably right, and the OP has been seeing that with regards to .38 Special LSWC-HP.

There may be something relating to a 10mm FBI load

But in the event we are talking about the 10mm, it's pretty much a very tame, wimpy 10mm loaded by Federal to send a 180-gr JHP to about 950 fps. Referred to as "FBI lite." Wimpy, because the 10 was designed to send a 200gr bullet to 1200+ fps.

When you discuss the rise and fall of the 10mm cartridge in it's short history in the FBI, especially here on TFL, arguments usually ensure about how much is historical fact and how much is internet hooey and gun store gossip. That's for the end user to sort out, but the relevant points usually include the FBI putting out a contract for a new service pistol that made up for the inadequacies of the 9mm round and S&W winning the contract with the 1076 pistol in 10mm. Then... (and here's where the arguing gets rolling), for whatever reason, the idea surfaced that the typically loaded 10mm is a hot little number, somewhat difficult to control and/or handle. More arguments ensue, and then in the fog appears Federal's downloaded wimpy 950 fps JHP ammo in 10mm. S&W then says, "we can make a whole new caliber if that's all you want your .40 cal bullet to do, and we can build a smaller handgun closer to the dimensions of the 9mm rather than this 10mm monster." S&W design a pistol around a new caliber built in conjunction with Winchester... And the .40 S&W caliber is born. (then, Glock actually beats S&W to the market with the first .40 S&W pistols!)

Anyhow, when someone is referencing FBI Lite 10mm, that's pretty much what they are talking about: watered down, wimpy 10mm ammo that's no better than .40 S&W ammo. To this day, Federal's own Hydra-shock ammo in 10mm is weak, wimpy and (in a 10mm), senseless.

[azredhawk44]

Anyhow, when someone is referencing FBI Lite 10mm, that's pretty much what they are talking about: watered down, wimpy 10mm ammo that's no better than .40 S&W ammo. To this day, Federal's own Hydra-shock ammo in 10mm is weak, wimpy and (in a 10mm), senseless.

I would argue that the FBI-Lite is superior to the shortnweak even if the velocity is the same. The pressure is lower and the damage to hearing is lessened by the increased case volume. Also greater tolerance for bullet setback or manufacturing variances, especially with heavy bullets (such as the 180's mentioned above which Dillon Mfg abhorrs in reloaded .40 cases to the point they started an aggressive marketing campaign targeted expressly towards .40 shooters who were their customers).

But... I'm a fortyhater.

Most of the time I hear FBI Load, however, it seems to mean the 158gr LSWCHP .38 revolver round.

[CENTURION1945]

Hi ARMSMASTER270: Do you know a load data to duplicate the .38 Special Treassury load with the Sierra 110 Gr. JHC bullet and get some 1300 fps? At this moment I have Blue Dot powder and CCI 550 primers. The gun is a .357 M. 4" barrel.

[armsmaster270]

I have no Idea I have enough of the Federal and winchester factory+P+ 38's that I never worried about it. Sorry. I prefer the Federal over the Winchester




Actual recovered Slug from BG after Fed +P+ 110gr Controlled Expansion Bullet. BG DOA

[zxcvbob]

a load data to duplicate the .38 Special Treassury load with the Sierra 110 Gr. JHC bullet and get some 1300 fps? At this moment I have Blue Dot powder and CCI 550 primers. The gun is a .357 M. 4" barrel.

12 grains of Blue Dot will get you close. (in .38 Special brass) 9.3 grains of Power Pistol is better; same velocity but lower pressure and more complete combustion. Both are over current SAAMI specs for .38 Special +P, but not much over.

[CENTURION1945]

Thanks very much for the answers. Very nice pict, expansion but no fragmentation, what bullet brand & velocity?
Excellent suggestion. Already I experimented in .38 Spl. cases with Blue Dot, Sierra 110 JHC and CCI550, COL 1,450": 12,8 gr. 1400 fps ES 34 (poor velocity gained); 12,1 gr. 1363 fps ES 33 (yet a bit hard); 11,7 gr. 1313 fps ES 71 (high ES, velocity +/- 12,5 fps x 0,1 gr. increment, same as in the Sierra manual). I would appreciate very much your guessing on pressure and general advise on the cartidge. Unfortunately is impossible for me to obtain Power Pistol powder.
Previous experimentation with H2400 give a lot of unburned powder, Unique, raise the pressure with no velocity gain. Thanks a lot again.

[zxcvbob]

You are using a shorter OAL than I originally thought. 0.1" is significant here. You can't safely get where you're going using Blue Dot, but you can get sort of close. (I wouldn't load over 11.0 grains)

Cartridge          : .38 Special +P (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .357, 110, Sierra JHC Blitz 8300
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.450 inch or 36.83 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder             : Alliant BLUE DOT

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   72     9.60   1101     296   15218   5626     65.5    0.639
-18.0   74     9.84   1128     311   16036   5858     66.7    0.624  ! Near Maximum !
-16.0   76    10.08   1155     326   16890   6094     67.9    0.609  ! Near Maximum !
-14.0   78    10.32   1182     341   17783   6331     69.1    0.595  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-12.0   80    10.56   1210     357   18715   6571     70.3    0.581  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-10.0   81    10.80   1237     374   19688   6812     71.4    0.567  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-08.0   83    11.04   1265     391   20703   7056     72.6    0.554  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0   85    11.28   1292     408   21763   7301     73.7    0.541  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0   87    11.52   1320     426   22868   7547     74.8    0.528  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0   89    11.76   1348     444   24021   7794     75.9    0.515  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0   91    12.00   1376     462   25224   8041     77.0    0.503  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0   92    12.24   1404     481   26478   8290     78.0    0.490  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0   94    12.48   1432     501   27786   8538     79.1    0.478  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0   96    12.72   1460     520   29150   8787     80.1    0.467  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0   98    12.96   1488     541   30573   9035     81.1    0.456  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  100    13.20   1516     561   32057   9282     82.1    0.445  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     91    12.00   1468     526   29510   8768     84.9    0.464  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     91    12.00   1273     396   21144   7150     67.8    0.548  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

[CENTURION1945]

Thanks for the answer. Very usefull chart with lot of information. The OAL 1,450" I use is the printed in the Sierra manual. The maximun powder charge for the future: 11,7 gr. This load is intented to be fired only in a S&W M19 .357 Mag. 4" barrel revolver. I think 24.000 psi will not harm this gun. Other data was experimental only. Thanks again.

[armsmaster270]

Centurion 1945:

Slugs were from the treasury load by Federal #38F-TD 110gr JHP 15% pressure overload from 38+p fired from a 4" S&W Mod 15 Range to impact 3' as he was charging me with a knife. Clothing Tshirt and Pendleton shirt over that.
Chamber pressures for 38spl +P+ ammo go from 18,500 to 23,500 depending on Mfg.

[CENTURION1945]

Thank all for the imput, was very usefull.

[Creature]

Buffalo Bore 158gr LSWCHP (standard pressure ... or +P)

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Time to dust off this old thread because I'm trying to recreate the Buffalo Bore 158 gr +P load as well.

I have some LSWC bullets, they aren't hollow points but this is more for training so that wont matter.

I'm looking for +P data with a cast bullet and can't find much. The best data I can find so far is 6.3gr of HS-6 it should give me 1010fps out of a 7.7" barrel. I'll be using a 2" barrel so it's no where near the 1000fps claimed by BB.

[zxcvbob]

I load 158 grain SWCHP's with 4.5 grains of American Select. Just because. I haven't chronographed them, but based on Alliant load data they should be close to 950 fps, maybe a little over, from a 4".

You're going to have trouble finding anything to beat 5.0 grains of Unique. That may be a slight overload, depending on what book you want to believe and what 158 grain bullet you use.

[spacecoast]

Magnus Bullets #515 with 4.3 grains of Bullseye will get you real close.

For a practice load, I use a 158 gr. LSWC (no need to pay extra for HP) with 5.3 grains of Unique. I can't distingish them from the real thing (Remington R38S12).

[AlaskaMike]

Steve, I just want to verify--are you using cast SWCs, or are these pure lead SWCs like the Speer product?

If your bullets truly are cast SWCs then you're fine, but if they're store bought pure lead SWCs then you'll want to keep the velocity down.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

The +P data I have for bullseye tops out at 3.8gr for a claimed 954fps which would be less than the standard pressure max for HS6.

Would 4.3gr be +P+? I want these to be safe in my alloy framed 642.

I'm not sure what the make up of the bullest I'm using are. I bought them at a local gun store and they are made by a local company I assume.

[7.62 Nato]

I've wondered if there is a "magnum" version of this load for the 357 in 357 cases.