The Garrote

PaladinX13 · September 22, 2001, 12:27 AM

Continuing my scholarship in the odds and ends of Alternative Force....

The garrote's constantly being referenced as an improvised weapon, we see it in movies all the time, and the concealability presents much interest in it. But what are the realities behind the weapon? Does it have any self-defense applications? Is there any way to practically deploy it except by stealth, at the neck, and from behind? Is there any defense (before/after deployed)? Is thinner/heavier/serrated/smooth wire better, why? Are one finger garrotes practical? Does anyone really train in the garrote?

STEVE M · September 22, 2001, 06:01 AM

The garrote has no self defence role. It's primary purpose is sentry elimination. Since the advent of better silencers it's role in that application is also ebbing. I doubt that any normal civilian person trains in its use.
Last I new (from experience) is was part of some military E & E courses; it's still probably tought to the SF types. I wouldn't want to try one of the 2 finger varity, we were shown to also turn it's use into a hip throw that stood a good chance of snapping the neck to make things go quicker.

Coronach · September 22, 2001, 07:30 AM

Pretty much the only way a garrote is useful is to kill (not disable) a person after you have snuck up behind them. As such, it has pretty much NO self defense role whatsoever.

Mike

zanthope · September 22, 2001, 08:47 AM

This is also a garrote:

http://www.fortunecity.es/arcoiris/t...73/garrote.htm

It was used for the application of the death penalty in Spain until the seventies.

That "tee" is a screw that the executioner turned into the condemned's neck/spine.

I remember seeing a standing version, too, much like the traditional firing squad post.

Cheerful, ain't it?

Glamdring · September 22, 2001, 06:32 PM

"The garrote has no self defence role. It's primary purpose is sentry elimination." "Pretty much the only way a garrote is useful is to kill (not disable) a person after you have snuck up behind them. As such, it has pretty much NO self defense role whatsoever."

Guns have no real role in self defense either, since they are mainly used to kill.

Consider the joint locks and strangles taught to LE using the PR-24. Consider the Nun Chuck, using the Chuck as a garotte is probably more effective than typical wire Garrote since you get a true lever effect from the chuck. Fact is with a chuck you can trap and "strangle" a wrist or arm of an attacker.

Suggest getting Ayoob's "Fundamentals of Modern Police Impact Weapons" and "Nunchaku: Karate Weapon of Self-Defense" by Fumio Demura.

You can apply strangles with your arms or with a PR-24 from front, either side, or rear so I think it is safe to say that you could use a garotte in a melee. But it would probably be easier to apply a strangle with something you didn't have to slip over an opponents head.

I might also add that in light of recent events I think a very strong arguement can be made for quiet kill techniques having at least a limited utility for self defense. If your trapped by multiple opponents that have already killed and you have no weapons or only improvised weapons you might well resort to using electric cord and improvised garotte if you couldn't find anything better.

Spectre · September 22, 2001, 08:01 PM

You're limiting yourself if your tool, in this case, is only a flexible. By attaching a weight to either or both ends, one can use the device to trap, choke, or impact.

At least one member of this board often carries a lock and rope, which he uses as a belt, onto airplanes. In an emergency, he has an impact tool with some reach...that, AFAIK, even the FAA hasn't outlawed yet.

Coronach · September 22, 2001, 11:08 PM

"Guns have no real role in self defense either, since they are mainly used to kill. "

No. The key point is that in order to properly use a garrote you need to sneak up behind someone to employ it. Hardly justifiable under most state's self-defense laws.

Mike

PS yes, you can probably come up with a wild-assed scenario in which this would be a valid form of self-defense, but we speak of the rules, not the exceptions.

Spectre · September 23, 2001, 06:37 AM

There is enough blood in the human legs to enable "choking" via contricting the circulation...In the martial arts I train in, there is a kata where one traps an attacker's kicking leg, and clamps down on it, fairly high.

Having had it performed on me, I can assure you it leads to rapid unconsciousness.

A device similar to what I have described (a small chain or rope with weights at both ends) can be concealed in one's hand, yet give an additional 2 1/2' or so of striking distance.

I have shredded many a dead tree with such chains, so I can vouch for their striking power.

MAGon · September 24, 2001, 08:18 AM

"There is enough blood in the human legs to enable "choking" via contricting the circulation...In the martial arts I train in, there is a kata where one traps an attacker's kicking leg, and clamps down on it, fairly high. Having had it performed on me, I can assure you it leads to rapid unconsciousness."

Spectre: Funny that you should bring this up, 'cause I was intrigued to read recently that you can knock an opponent unconcious with a strong kick to the thigh, thereby shocking the femoral artery and causing unconciousness. Now you bring this up.
That's a neat MA you're involved in, what is it? Does anyone know any other tricks along these lines they'd care to share?

Spectre · September 24, 2001, 05:18 PM

I used to train under the Bujinkan system. I now train with the Jinenkan.

Welcome to TFL!

guerilla1138 · September 29, 2001, 12:03 PM

I've messed with a garrote, couple different ones actually, a wire saw, the kind with key rings at each end for your fingers. I got it out of a survival kit. It was a little short for looping around the neck tho.

Seconds one I made was made from paracord, with two short, half inch diameter pieces of black PVC pipe for handles.

They are interesting weapons.

I dont carry one, I am afraid that even if I got a chance to use it in true self defense, because of the nature of the weapon saying it was self defense would look like bull [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color].

My thing with them, wasnt choking, it was trapping, and grappling.
When I was working with one regularly (its been a couple months now since I trained/played with one) I had it down smooth (sorta) to get an arm by the wrist with the garrote and put leverage on it, enough to cause pain, and pain or no pain I;ve stillg ot the guys arm.
Only thing there is, both my hands are occupied with keeping my garrote on his arm.

With some work, one might be able to get good at trappings an grappling with one of the one handed versions.

But yeah....its got its uses aside from pure killing, but it just wouldnt look good in court if you ended up in that situation.

PaladinX13 · October 1, 2001, 10:49 AM

For those interested, Don Rearic's written up two fine articles on the topic at his website:

http://the-asylum.co.uk/donrearic

Spectre · October 1, 2001, 09:06 PM

Thanks. Don and I have missed each other twice, when he was down for the blade show.

(My fault both times.) Good articles.

I have typically trained with the weighted chain. With something like this, the weight tend to naturally snare limbs, if you know how to swing it. (Or, one can deliberately just hit with the weight.) I feel this type of weapon has the most utility, combining the striking and the trapping ability (and, in the gravest extreme, easy lethality).

All Don's comments about caution when training with these apply.

September 22, 2001, 12:27 AM	#1
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	The Garrote Continuing my scholarship in the odds and ends of Alternative Force.... The garrote's constantly being referenced as an improvised weapon, we see it in movies all the time, and the concealability presents much interest in it. But what are the realities behind the weapon? Does it have any self-defense applications? Is there any way to practically deploy it except by stealth, at the neck, and from behind? Is there any defense (before/after deployed)? Is thinner/heavier/serrated/smooth wire better, why? Are one finger garrotes practical? Does anyone really train in the garrote?

September 22, 2001, 06:01 AM	#2
STEVE M Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 1999 Location: TN. USA Posts: 607	The garrote has no self defence role. It's primary purpose is sentry elimination. Since the advent of better silencers it's role in that application is also ebbing. I doubt that any normal civilian person trains in its use. Last I new (from experience) is was part of some military E & E courses; it's still probably tought to the SF types. I wouldn't want to try one of the 2 finger varity, we were shown to also turn it's use into a hip throw that stood a good chance of snapping the neck to make things go quicker. __________________ MOLON LABE! I've joined the 300.

September 22, 2001, 07:30 AM	#3
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	Pretty much the only way a garrote is useful is to kill (not disable) a person after you have snuck up behind them. As such, it has pretty much NO self defense role whatsoever. Mike __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

September 22, 2001, 08:47 AM	#4
zanthope Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 258	Spanish Death Penalty This is also a garrote: http://www.fortunecity.es/arcoiris/t...73/garrote.htm It was used for the application of the death penalty in Spain until the seventies. That "tee" is a screw that the executioner turned into the condemned's neck/spine. I remember seeing a standing version, too, much like the traditional firing squad post. Cheerful, ain't it? __________________ We are born naked, wet, and hungry. Then it gets worse.

September 22, 2001, 06:32 PM	#5
Glamdring Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2000 Location: MN Posts: 1,388	"The garrote has no self defence role. It's primary purpose is sentry elimination." "Pretty much the only way a garrote is useful is to kill (not disable) a person after you have snuck up behind them. As such, it has pretty much NO self defense role whatsoever." Guns have no real role in self defense either, since they are mainly used to kill. Consider the joint locks and strangles taught to LE using the PR-24. Consider the Nun Chuck, using the Chuck as a garotte is probably more effective than typical wire Garrote since you get a true lever effect from the chuck. Fact is with a chuck you can trap and "strangle" a wrist or arm of an attacker. Suggest getting Ayoob's "Fundamentals of Modern Police Impact Weapons" and "Nunchaku: Karate Weapon of Self-Defense" by Fumio Demura. You can apply strangles with your arms or with a PR-24 from front, either side, or rear so I think it is safe to say that you could use a garotte in a melee. But it would probably be easier to apply a strangle with something you didn't have to slip over an opponents head. I might also add that in light of recent events I think a very strong arguement can be made for quiet kill techniques having at least a limited utility for self defense. If your trapped by multiple opponents that have already killed and you have no weapons or only improvised weapons you might well resort to using electric cord and improvised garotte if you couldn't find anything better. __________________ "A traveler has no protection besides his fire-arms; and the constant habit of carrying them is the main check to more frequent robberies" --Charles Darwin from The Voyage Of The Beagle

September 22, 2001, 08:01 PM	#6
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	You're limiting yourself if your tool, in this case, is only a flexible. By attaching a weight to either or both ends, one can use the device to trap, choke, or impact. At least one member of this board often carries a lock and rope, which he uses as a belt, onto airplanes. In an emergency, he has an impact tool with some reach...that, AFAIK, even the FAA hasn't outlawed yet. __________________ John Wandering Thoughts

September 22, 2001, 11:08 PM	#7
Coronach Senior Member Join Date: March 25, 1999 Posts: 3,147	"Guns have no real role in self defense either, since they are mainly used to kill. " No. The key point is that in order to properly use a garrote you need to sneak up behind someone to employ it. Hardly justifiable under most state's self-defense laws. Mike PS yes, you can probably come up with a wild-assed scenario in which this would be a valid form of self-defense, but we speak of the rules, not the exceptions. __________________ The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk." "And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog "True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah "A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein

September 23, 2001, 06:37 AM	#8
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	There is enough blood in the human legs to enable "choking" via contricting the circulation...In the martial arts I train in, there is a kata where one traps an attacker's kicking leg, and clamps down on it, fairly high. Having had it performed on me, I can assure you it leads to rapid unconsciousness. A device similar to what I have described (a small chain or rope with weights at both ends) can be concealed in one's hand, yet give an additional 2 1/2' or so of striking distance. I have shredded many a dead tree with such chains, so I can vouch for their striking power.

September 24, 2001, 08:18 AM	#9
MAGon Member Join Date: June 25, 2001 Posts: 20	"There is enough blood in the human legs to enable "choking" via contricting the circulation...In the martial arts I train in, there is a kata where one traps an attacker's kicking leg, and clamps down on it, fairly high. Having had it performed on me, I can assure you it leads to rapid unconsciousness." Spectre: Funny that you should bring this up, 'cause I was intrigued to read recently that you can knock an opponent unconcious with a strong kick to the thigh, thereby shocking the femoral artery and causing unconciousness. Now you bring this up. That's a neat MA you're involved in, what is it? Does anyone know any other tricks along these lines they'd care to share?

September 24, 2001, 05:18 PM	#10
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I used to train under the Bujinkan system. I now train with the Jinenkan. Welcome to TFL!

September 29, 2001, 12:03 PM	#11
guerilla1138 Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2000 Posts: 294	I've messed with a garrote, couple different ones actually, a wire saw, the kind with key rings at each end for your fingers. I got it out of a survival kit. It was a little short for looping around the neck tho. Seconds one I made was made from paracord, with two short, half inch diameter pieces of black PVC pipe for handles. They are interesting weapons. I dont carry one, I am afraid that even if I got a chance to use it in true self defense, because of the nature of the weapon saying it was self defense would look like bull [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]. My thing with them, wasnt choking, it was trapping, and grappling. When I was working with one regularly (its been a couple months now since I trained/played with one) I had it down smooth (sorta) to get an arm by the wrist with the garrote and put leverage on it, enough to cause pain, and pain or no pain I;ve stillg ot the guys arm. Only thing there is, both my hands are occupied with keeping my garrote on his arm. With some work, one might be able to get good at trappings an grappling with one of the one handed versions. But yeah....its got its uses aside from pure killing, but it just wouldnt look good in court if you ended up in that situation.

October 1, 2001, 10:49 AM	#12
PaladinX13 Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2000 Posts: 519	For those interested, Don Rearic's written up two fine articles on the topic at his website: http://the-asylum.co.uk/donrearic

October 1, 2001, 09:06 PM	#13
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Thanks. Don and I have missed each other twice, when he was down for the blade show. (My fault both times.) Good articles. I have typically trained with the weighted chain. With something like this, the weight tend to naturally snare limbs, if you know how to swing it. (Or, one can deliberately just hit with the weight.) I feel this type of weapon has the most utility, combining the striking and the trapping ability (and, in the gravest extreme, easy lethality). All Don's comments about caution when training with these apply.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search