Training Day, Continued

KSFreeman · November 10, 2002, 08:36 PM

As I have received many inquiries regarding the status of my attempt to impart what meager knowledge I possess to a female LEO who has little knowledge of firearms (she bought a Ber M21 in .25 acp in law school), I thought I would keep you posted [pun intended, of course

].

We started off by field stripping the 870. She did this several times and was impressed with its simplicity that even KSFreeman could take it apart. We also reviewed stripping the pistols that the agency that she is applying for issues--the Glock, the 1911 and a SIG I borrowed from a buddy.

Using red guns, a Glock and an 870, borrowed from the same buddy, we went over retention and disarms. At first she was alarmed that the weapon could be taken from her with seemingly little effort. After showing her how, she later "got into it" producing a nice red mark on my forehead and the ability to sing a couple of octaves higher (I had my racquetball goggles, but I should have been prepared in other ways).

After walking the pain off and some water, we went over some home and vehicle tactics--cover, positions, movement, transitions, deploying the weapons in cramped quarters. We only touched on team tactics but I hope I imparted some basics that will help.

Her second interview in Cleveland went well. It will be a short time before she finds out if she gets the call to Old Virginny for the final interview. There is so much to cover. I hope we get to go shooting again. I have access to a couple of MP5s and I want to go over them with her (the SMGs she has shot with me have been open bolt). We need to shoot some more (always), especially with slugs.

I hope she gets the call. I'm sure she'll do well. Even if she does not, maybe she'll be motivated to receive some real training.

ThePatriot29 · November 11, 2002, 02:37 AM

Great. We can always use more PROPERLY trained LEOs. Keep it up.

Dave McC · November 11, 2002, 05:14 AM

Well done, KS. This rookie is getting better instruction and basics than most.

The armored cup type groin protector is a must for any type of drill involving contact. That's why I'm still a baritone...

KSFreeman · November 11, 2002, 05:20 PM

Thanks, guys, we shall see. The proof being in the pudding (or the range at Quantico) afterall.

I hope she writes if she goes. The guys never have, but they did just fine. Different this time (sexist I know, I know).

CULLENIII · November 13, 2002, 08:36 AM

If she is a LEO now --doesnt she have basic agency specific firearms knowledge? I am curious why she would need to know how to shoot a smg as a LEO? I find when departments get people with out of agency firearms knowledge--they make them unlearn stuff--just for liability and uniformness. If she wants to learn how to shoot on her own and she doenst have a job I applaud her and you--but if she is preparing for specific agency then she shoudl wait for that training to come on its own. Just playing the devils advocate here.

KSFreeman · November 13, 2002, 07:36 PM

CULLENIII, contrary to TV and the gun rags not all LEOs walk "the mean streets" or "the border" or whatever fictional tales one may see on TV or read. Some work in offices and courtrooms and represent the State of Indiana in court and have no experience with firearms.

The machine pistol, HK54 and Colt 635, is a selected weapon for this agency. Familitarity with the weapon is essential and may be life saving.

A varied experience with firearms serves as a foundation to a safer and wiser handling of firearms than those without any experience, see Jim Cirillo's experience as a RM or read Uncle Jeff's reflections upon Marines and soldiers who started as "squirrel shooters." See also the Supreme Court of Georgia, "The right of the whole people, old and young, men and women, and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed or broken in upon, in the smallest degree. . . ." Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 251 (1846).

The idea that ignorance is somehow beneficial is shocking and can only be believed by PDs who must believe the lies of their political bosses to stay employed. Fighting with firearms is deadly serious and only those with enormous umbrella policies may be flip about it.

I'm giving up hanging out at the gun shoppe while wearing my flowered shirts and joining the SEALs. Should I learn to swim?

The idea that one FTU will teach one "everything you need to know" is silly and deadly. Just ask Jerry Dove!

Dave McC · November 13, 2002, 08:29 PM

Ahem.....

Having trained a few hundred COs in the use of firearms, here's my informed opinion.

Few administrators are firearms buffs. Most are career politicians and managers,more interested in their careers than the lives and well being of the rank and file.

I fought like heck in the old days to get HP bullets,instead of 158 gr RN, issued as duty ammo, even though our opposite numbers in the State Police had them following an incident where a parolee kiiled a Trooper after being centered with a 158 round nose load. After having the words, "Vicarious Liability" whispered in the ears, things moved along.

One of those administrators had shot a bystander, a pregnant nurse,during an incident while escorting a prisoner at University Hospital. He knew less about shooting than a clam does about astronomy.

One TO insisted that using the old RN loads was a better idea because bystanders shot by accident with them had a better chance of survival. I forget whose BIL he was, but he definitely was someone's.

OTOH, I found those folks with a solid grounding in any of the shooting sports excelled on the range. The wider the experience, the better they did, regardless of weapon.

BTW, Marines were the best vets as a group on the range. Many had never used a 38 caliber revolver, but they acquired expertise at an admirable rate.

Were I in KS's place, I'd do things pretty much the same way. Grounding in safety and basics, then some specialized stuff using the issue weaponry.

Denny Hansen · November 13, 2002, 08:38 PM

Dave's right. The fast track in law enforcement does not run anywhere near the armory.

Good job, Kirk. Best of luck to your friend.

Denny

KSFreeman · November 13, 2002, 09:08 PM

Wow! A TFL blessing from Dave. Made my day. I haven't seen her all week as she's in trial now. Hope she learned something and enjoyed herself (what's training without some sarcasm).

Thanks, Denny. I think part of the reason that the "fast track" bypasses the FTU is that the notion from the stone age that the FTU was a cherry pick. Day hours (usually), no directing traffic in the rain, no chasing after mopes wanted on warrants, no fights in bars, no whining "victims" and no waiting out in the hallway to be called in as a witness at trial or deposition.

Often (not always) the head of the FTU was selected on favoritism, not competence. There is growing awareness of the futility of this position among the po-po (not fast enough, I'm sure).

Dave McC · November 14, 2002, 06:28 AM

Training has always been looked on as a cozy billet. With few exceptions, TOs are brass in training and know little about weapons and how to use them. The last TO I worked with bragged on how he had never fired a weapon. He was a decent sort, and could distinguish between BS and Shinola. He picked a good set of firearms instructors and eased the fluff out and off the range.

I attended my first instructor's school in 1981, and shortly thereafter was assigned to instruct a couple hundred rookies for the new prison opening up. The TO was not only a politician but a real detriment, luckily all he did was drop off more ammo and qualification sheets and leave the range as fast as possible. Did I mention that this occurred in June and July? MD's heat is only matched by its humidity. My new Sgt's stripes were hardly worth the sweat.

We got paid for 40 hours, but spent at least 10 hours a day on the range. My guess was I drank a gallon of water each day and still lost weight. Had a nice tan and a bad 'tude.

We had rookies that showed up at 8 AM with liquor on their breath, or dilated pupils after lunch. All the ROs got exercise jumping out of the way as some fool swung a muzzle past them or triggered off a shot after cease fire had been called. We still have stories from that era about unmitigated sillyness on the range, but I'll spare you.

At last we had the survivors qualified, half of whom quit or got fired within 6 months, and the TO got a written Commendation for getting everyone "Qualified". Us ROs got to leave at 2 PM that Friday IF all the weapons were clean. We were charged Annual Leave for the time.

Attrition was so bad we did it again 3 months later with a smaller group, maybe 120. At that point I was an Acting Lt,trying to work with a new prison, new officers, new supervisors, and a set of knucklehead convicts that other prisons foisted
off on us.They wanted me to instruct 4 hours, and work the prison for 8 each weekday. It was a real fun time....

CULLENIII · November 14, 2002, 11:24 AM

I most wholeheartedly agree that other firearms knowledge will assist a LEO or military in firearms training. I myself am immensly gratefull for my own personal experiences in comparison to my military service, as they did not teach me anything and probably hindered me. But, in a LEO role---unfortunately officers are held accountable to the limit for the way they deploy there firearms and for each shot--not that as a private citizen is any less accountable, but we have just our lives at stake and not our jobs. I agree not all LEOs work on the "mean streets"-I work with those types everyday but whatever that means--as I consider every street mean for I have no illusion of safety in urban, rural or surburban saftey in regards after seeing events in my occupation. I agree they should all be trained properly as well.
As for them carrying a sub-machine gun on a regular basis---I dont agree to that. Our police has become more and more militarized as crime rates have gone down. What is the need for that?? But, I do agree in providing the best weaponary and best protection available as long as LEO are properly trained in use and tactics. In regards to Jerry Dove, I have been to the scene of action and in the accounts that I have read, it is unfortunate that he and fellow agents were involved in that conflict and hopefully we reap the benefits of their sacrafice, but they did not look at the situation realistically and did not prepare themselves adaquatley. If they had they would have been wearing rifle rated armor, had multiple handguns, and rifles. Besides being in direct contact with local pd. They deserved to be armed to the teeth because they were on a armed bank robbery rolling stakeout. I understand that some law enforcement types but then again, if they work in court and offices why dont they have training or experience allready-wasnt it part of there academy?? If your a cop then u should carry a gun, on or off duty. You say she is applying at the end of your initial post---does that mean she is not a LEO yet? In the end, I do wish her luck and hope that she prospers in that tough occupation.

KSFreeman · November 14, 2002, 06:56 PM

Cullen, to clarify, she is a state LEO, she is applying to become a fed. She has no firearms experience other than her father, a retired fed, taking her shooting once at age 13 on her grandfather's farm.

She had purchased a .25 in `98 in law school, but had not fired it until out with me. She had never fired an AR, a variety of pistols, a SMG or shotgun until going shooting with me.

November 10, 2002, 08:36 PM	#1
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Training Day, Continued As I have received many inquiries regarding the status of my attempt to impart what meager knowledge I possess to a female LEO who has little knowledge of firearms (she bought a Ber M21 in .25 acp in law school), I thought I would keep you posted [pun intended, of course]. We started off by field stripping the 870. She did this several times and was impressed with its simplicity that even KSFreeman could take it apart. We also reviewed stripping the pistols that the agency that she is applying for issues--the Glock, the 1911 and a SIG I borrowed from a buddy. Using red guns, a Glock and an 870, borrowed from the same buddy, we went over retention and disarms. At first she was alarmed that the weapon could be taken from her with seemingly little effort. After showing her how, she later "got into it" producing a nice red mark on my forehead and the ability to sing a couple of octaves higher (I had my racquetball goggles, but I should have been prepared in other ways). After walking the pain off and some water, we went over some home and vehicle tactics--cover, positions, movement, transitions, deploying the weapons in cramped quarters. We only touched on team tactics but I hope I imparted some basics that will help. Her second interview in Cleveland went well. It will be a short time before she finds out if she gets the call to Old Virginny for the final interview. There is so much to cover. I hope we get to go shooting again. I have access to a couple of MP5s and I want to go over them with her (the SMGs she has shot with me have been open bolt). We need to shoot some more (always), especially with slugs. I hope she gets the call. I'm sure she'll do well. Even if she does not, maybe she'll be motivated to receive some real training. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

November 11, 2002, 05:20 PM	#4
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Thanks, guys, we shall see. The proof being in the pudding (or the range at Quantico) afterall. I hope she writes if she goes. The guys never have, but they did just fine. Different this time (sexist I know, I know). __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

November 13, 2002, 08:36 AM	#5
CULLENIII Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Central Florida Posts: 55	If she is a LEO now --doesnt she have basic agency specific firearms knowledge? I am curious why she would need to know how to shoot a smg as a LEO? I find when departments get people with out of agency firearms knowledge--they make them unlearn stuff--just for liability and uniformness. If she wants to learn how to shoot on her own and she doenst have a job I applaud her and you--but if she is preparing for specific agency then she shoudl wait for that training to come on its own. Just playing the devils advocate here. __________________ We deal in lead friend...

November 13, 2002, 07:36 PM	#6
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	CULLENIII, contrary to TV and the gun rags not all LEOs walk "the mean streets" or "the border" or whatever fictional tales one may see on TV or read. Some work in offices and courtrooms and represent the State of Indiana in court and have no experience with firearms. The machine pistol, HK54 and Colt 635, is a selected weapon for this agency. Familitarity with the weapon is essential and may be life saving. A varied experience with firearms serves as a foundation to a safer and wiser handling of firearms than those without any experience, see Jim Cirillo's experience as a RM or read Uncle Jeff's reflections upon Marines and soldiers who started as "squirrel shooters." See also the Supreme Court of Georgia, "The right of the whole people, old and young, men and women, and boys, and not militia only, to keep and bear arms of every description, and not such merely as are used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed or broken in upon, in the smallest degree. . . ." Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 251 (1846). The idea that ignorance is somehow beneficial is shocking and can only be believed by PDs who must believe the lies of their political bosses to stay employed. Fighting with firearms is deadly serious and only those with enormous umbrella policies may be flip about it. I'm giving up hanging out at the gun shoppe while wearing my flowered shirts and joining the SEALs. Should I learn to swim? The idea that one FTU will teach one "everything you need to know" is silly and deadly. Just ask Jerry Dove! __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

November 13, 2002, 08:38 PM	#8
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Dave's right. The fast track in law enforcement does not run anywhere near the armory. Good job, Kirk. Best of luck to your friend. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

November 11, 2002, 02:37 AM	#2
ThePatriot29 Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Virginia Posts: 120	Great. We can always use more PROPERLY trained LEOs. Keep it up.

November 11, 2002, 05:14 AM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Well done, KS. This rookie is getting better instruction and basics than most. The armored cup type groin protector is a must for any type of drill involving contact. That's why I'm still a baritone...

November 13, 2002, 08:29 PM	#7
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Ahem..... Having trained a few hundred COs in the use of firearms, here's my informed opinion. Few administrators are firearms buffs. Most are career politicians and managers,more interested in their careers than the lives and well being of the rank and file. I fought like heck in the old days to get HP bullets,instead of 158 gr RN, issued as duty ammo, even though our opposite numbers in the State Police had them following an incident where a parolee kiiled a Trooper after being centered with a 158 round nose load. After having the words, "Vicarious Liability" whispered in the ears, things moved along. One of those administrators had shot a bystander, a pregnant nurse,during an incident while escorting a prisoner at University Hospital. He knew less about shooting than a clam does about astronomy. One TO insisted that using the old RN loads was a better idea because bystanders shot by accident with them had a better chance of survival. I forget whose BIL he was, but he definitely was someone's. OTOH, I found those folks with a solid grounding in any of the shooting sports excelled on the range. The wider the experience, the better they did, regardless of weapon. BTW, Marines were the best vets as a group on the range. Many had never used a 38 caliber revolver, but they acquired expertise at an admirable rate. Were I in KS's place, I'd do things pretty much the same way. Grounding in safety and basics, then some specialized stuff using the issue weaponry.

November 13, 2002, 09:08 PM	#9
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Wow! A TFL blessing from Dave. Made my day. I haven't seen her all week as she's in trial now. Hope she learned something and enjoyed herself (what's training without some sarcasm). Thanks, Denny. I think part of the reason that the "fast track" bypasses the FTU is that the notion from the stone age that the FTU was a cherry pick. Day hours (usually), no directing traffic in the rain, no chasing after mopes wanted on warrants, no fights in bars, no whining "victims" and no waiting out in the hallway to be called in as a witness at trial or deposition. Often (not always) the head of the FTU was selected on favoritism, not competence. There is growing awareness of the futility of this position among the po-po (not fast enough, I'm sure). __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).

November 14, 2002, 06:28 AM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Training has always been looked on as a cozy billet. With few exceptions, TOs are brass in training and know little about weapons and how to use them. The last TO I worked with bragged on how he had never fired a weapon. He was a decent sort, and could distinguish between BS and Shinola. He picked a good set of firearms instructors and eased the fluff out and off the range. I attended my first instructor's school in 1981, and shortly thereafter was assigned to instruct a couple hundred rookies for the new prison opening up. The TO was not only a politician but a real detriment, luckily all he did was drop off more ammo and qualification sheets and leave the range as fast as possible. Did I mention that this occurred in June and July? MD's heat is only matched by its humidity. My new Sgt's stripes were hardly worth the sweat. We got paid for 40 hours, but spent at least 10 hours a day on the range. My guess was I drank a gallon of water each day and still lost weight. Had a nice tan and a bad 'tude. We had rookies that showed up at 8 AM with liquor on their breath, or dilated pupils after lunch. All the ROs got exercise jumping out of the way as some fool swung a muzzle past them or triggered off a shot after cease fire had been called. We still have stories from that era about unmitigated sillyness on the range, but I'll spare you. At last we had the survivors qualified, half of whom quit or got fired within 6 months, and the TO got a written Commendation for getting everyone "Qualified". Us ROs got to leave at 2 PM that Friday IF all the weapons were clean. We were charged Annual Leave for the time. Attrition was so bad we did it again 3 months later with a smaller group, maybe 120. At that point I was an Acting Lt,trying to work with a new prison, new officers, new supervisors, and a set of knucklehead convicts that other prisons foisted off on us.They wanted me to instruct 4 hours, and work the prison for 8 each weekday. It was a real fun time....

November 14, 2002, 11:24 AM	#11
CULLENIII Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Central Florida Posts: 55	I most wholeheartedly agree that other firearms knowledge will assist a LEO or military in firearms training. I myself am immensly gratefull for my own personal experiences in comparison to my military service, as they did not teach me anything and probably hindered me. But, in a LEO role---unfortunately officers are held accountable to the limit for the way they deploy there firearms and for each shot--not that as a private citizen is any less accountable, but we have just our lives at stake and not our jobs. I agree not all LEOs work on the "mean streets"-I work with those types everyday but whatever that means--as I consider every street mean for I have no illusion of safety in urban, rural or surburban saftey in regards after seeing events in my occupation. I agree they should all be trained properly as well. As for them carrying a sub-machine gun on a regular basis---I dont agree to that. Our police has become more and more militarized as crime rates have gone down. What is the need for that?? But, I do agree in providing the best weaponary and best protection available as long as LEO are properly trained in use and tactics. In regards to Jerry Dove, I have been to the scene of action and in the accounts that I have read, it is unfortunate that he and fellow agents were involved in that conflict and hopefully we reap the benefits of their sacrafice, but they did not look at the situation realistically and did not prepare themselves adaquatley. If they had they would have been wearing rifle rated armor, had multiple handguns, and rifles. Besides being in direct contact with local pd. They deserved to be armed to the teeth because they were on a armed bank robbery rolling stakeout. I understand that some law enforcement types but then again, if they work in court and offices why dont they have training or experience allready-wasnt it part of there academy?? If your a cop then u should carry a gun, on or off duty. You say she is applying at the end of your initial post---does that mean she is not a LEO yet? In the end, I do wish her luck and hope that she prospers in that tough occupation. __________________ We deal in lead friend...

November 14, 2002, 06:56 PM	#12
KSFreeman Senior Member Join Date: June 9, 2001 Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America Posts: 5,418	Cullen, to clarify, she is a state LEO, she is applying to become a fed. She has no firearms experience other than her father, a retired fed, taking her shooting once at age 13 on her grandfather's farm. She had purchased a .25 in `98 in law school, but had not fired it until out with me. She had never fired an AR, a variety of pistols, a SMG or shotgun until going shooting with me. __________________ "Arguments of policy must give way to a constitutional command." Payton v. New York, 445 U.S. 573, 602 (1980).