9mm vs .45ACP - Page 9

**Mike Irwin** · August 16, 2012, 11:09 AM

You are mistaken. The.38 super was not developed until the late 1920s. Earlier Browning guns, not the 1911, were chambered in.38 ACP, a less powerful cartridge. The final version of the 45 was developed per Army directive and was different from what Browning originally proposed.

P1090 · August 16, 2012, 03:25 PM

I see all these ballistic gellatin tests, and wonder who has 12+ inches of flesh in a straight line? We've got these wonderful things called bones that can mess up any scientific penetration test. I'm more concerned with which bullet transfers more energy to bone and which one is more likely to bounce around inside the bad guy pinball style? If you are shot in the chest, which round is more likely to deflect off a rib and go in the wrong direction? Which round has the best damage AFTER punching through the sternum?

Has anyone gotten a multitude of pig carcasses and shot them in the same spot and compared the damage? I'd believe that to be a more realistic test than some guy shooting a block of glorified jello in his back yard. If someone could point me towards ballistics gel tests with bones included, I would be rather grateful.

**Mike Irwin** · August 16, 2012, 03:58 PM

You misunderstand gelatin. It replicates the average mean density of all tissue in thebody. That is why it correlates so well with actual shootings.

AS for body penetration, not every shooting takes place with the target facing you squarely. Punch through an arm on an angle and you can be shouting through much more than 12 inches of flesh.

Going through an arm is one of the main reasons why the one shooter in the miami fight was able to keep going for so long. His arm asorbed much of the energy and it stopped just short of his heart. The wound was fatal but not as quickly as it would have been using the new bullets that penetrate far better.

Make no mistake about gelatin. It is by far the best medium ever developed and it compares to actual shootings far better than anything else even pigs

**Mike Irwin** · August 16, 2012, 04:08 PM

Last thing on gelatin. You start putting bones in it and its corollelation to actual shootings goes way way down to the pint whee you may as well be shooting at brick walls.

The FBI standards discuss development of the criteria.

P1090 · August 16, 2012, 04:11 PM

My mistake Mike. I had just figured going through multiple changing densities would make a definite difference compared to a single density. Don't really understand the concept but I'll take your word for it.

August 16, 2012, 11:09 AM	#201
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,109	You are mistaken. The.38 super was not developed until the late 1920s. Earlier Browning guns, not the 1911, were chambered in.38 ACP, a less powerful cartridge. The final version of the 45 was developed per Army directive and was different from what Browning originally proposed. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 16, 2012, 03:25 PM	#202
P1090 Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: NE Ohio/NE Georgia Posts: 42	I see all these ballistic gellatin tests, and wonder who has 12+ inches of flesh in a straight line? We've got these wonderful things called bones that can mess up any scientific penetration test. I'm more concerned with which bullet transfers more energy to bone and which one is more likely to bounce around inside the bad guy pinball style? If you are shot in the chest, which round is more likely to deflect off a rib and go in the wrong direction? Which round has the best damage AFTER punching through the sternum? Has anyone gotten a multitude of pig carcasses and shot them in the same spot and compared the damage? I'd believe that to be a more realistic test than some guy shooting a block of glorified jello in his back yard. If someone could point me towards ballistics gel tests with bones included, I would be rather grateful. __________________ Handgun stopping power is a myth. If you want stopping power, use a Buick.

August 16, 2012, 03:58 PM	#203
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,109	You misunderstand gelatin. It replicates the average mean density of all tissue in thebody. That is why it correlates so well with actual shootings. AS for body penetration, not every shooting takes place with the target facing you squarely. Punch through an arm on an angle and you can be shouting through much more than 12 inches of flesh. Going through an arm is one of the main reasons why the one shooter in the miami fight was able to keep going for so long. His arm asorbed much of the energy and it stopped just short of his heart. The wound was fatal but not as quickly as it would have been using the new bullets that penetrate far better. Make no mistake about gelatin. It is by far the best medium ever developed and it compares to actual shootings far better than anything else even pigs __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 16, 2012, 04:08 PM	#204
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 14, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 33,109	Last thing on gelatin. You start putting bones in it and its corollelation to actual shootings goes way way down to the pint whee you may as well be shooting at brick walls. The FBI standards discuss development of the criteria. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 16, 2012, 04:11 PM	#205
P1090 Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: NE Ohio/NE Georgia Posts: 42	My mistake Mike. I had just figured going through multiple changing densities would make a definite difference compared to a single density. Don't really understand the concept but I'll take your word for it. __________________ Handgun stopping power is a myth. If you want stopping power, use a Buick.