Is it safe to load .357 level charges in .38 Special cases?

[nate45]

Lets try to settle this question once and for all.

I mentioned on another thread that it was safe, others said it is not.

The load I referenced was 13.5 grains of 2400 with the 173 grain Keith type bullet. The reason I use .38 cases is because the OAL is to long for the cylinder when crimped behind the driving band in .357 cases.

I have shot this load for years in my .357s in S&W Model 19s, 28s,27s, my Model of 1950 .357, L frames, Colts and Rugers. I've never had an extraction problem never had a case failure.

Other members namely Mike Irwin and Gonzo_308 told me I was wrong and the practice was unsafe. They suggested I google and provide some proof that my assertions were correct.

So I did.

I have when loading up some of Elmer Keiths 38/44 loads. Those beat many of todays 357 Magnum loads. I haven't had any problems with it. I doubt the factory makes "weak" 38 Special brass and "strong" 357 Magnum brass, any more than they make "weak" 45 Colt brass. Some 45 Colt brass doesn't last as long with the heavy loads as Federal or Starline, but they'll contain the pressure just fine. Think of the brass as a gasket, the cylinder is still containing the pressure. posted by JohnK on handloads.com fourm.

Favorite loads for the Model 19 are easy to come up with. First there is the old standby, Elmer Keith's Original heavy .38 special load of his 173 grain SWC over 13.5 grains of #2400 in .38 special cases. This load gives 1250 fps in my 4" Combat Magnum. For full house loads, I go to 15.0 grains of #2400 with Lyman's excellent gas check bullet, Ray Thompson designed #358156GC. This favorite bullet goes 1409 from the 4" 19. written by John Taffin

38 SPECIAL: For use in heavy-framed guns which today exist only as .357 Magnums, the Keith Lyman 173 grain bullet #358429 over 13.5 grains of #2400 with .38 Special brass. This load goes over 1400 fps. from my 8 3/8" Model 27 and is the most accurate load I have found for it. It will still go 1200+ fps. from a 3 1/2" Model 27 and makes an excellent small game load and defensive load. John Taffin from the Sixguns and Loads of Elmer Keith.

173 gr KT 13.5 grs of 2400Original 38/44 Heavy Duty 38 Special load, loaded using 38 Special +P brass. This load should ONLY be used in 357 Magnums even though it uses a 38 Special case. Using the Dry Creek Bullets 173gr LSWC in 38 Special cases this round works great in my GP100 and M27 and is very accurate-From load data on handloads.com. load submitted by JohnK

I myself first read about the load in an Elmer Keith article years ago and have used it ever since with no problems.

Are we doing something dangerous? I want a definitive answer with sources not conjecture.

I say it is safe when fired in .357 revolvers.

[jaguarxk120]

The 357 case is longer to prevent the chambering of magnum rounds in a 38 special gun. That said yes you can load a very heavy charge in a 38 special and use it in a 357. Years ago S&W made a revolver called a 38/44, it was a 38 on a 44 frame and special round were loaded for it and marked 38/44.
They were loaded very heavy not quite 357 but heavy enough to strech a 38 frame.
If you load magnum levels in 38 cases make sure thet don't get mixed up with regular 38's. good luck TF

[zxcvbob]

If you do this, label them very well so if you get run over by a bread truck your heirs don't find them and shoot them in a .38 Special. And don't go crazy with the loads:

I recently tried loading 11 grains of Blue Dot in .38 Special brass with 158 grain cast bullets, and they shot very well in a .357 Magnum but it ruined the brass in one shot -- they had imminent case head seperations, and one of them broke off in my resizing die (and was very difficult to get out without ruining the die) and another broke in my hands. They all had a bright ring above the web. According to Quickload, the pressure was less than 40000 psi, but the brass stretched and failed.

[CraigC]

Factory and published handloads for the .38-44 are still well under original .357 levels and would be safe in any .357. I've shot plenty of them in original .38-44's and a couple .357's. Never had a problem with the brass. Except that nickel plated Remington stuff with the cannelure.

[doug66]

If I want a .357 mag. load, I use .357 mag. cases.

[nate45]

I've shot plenty of them in original .38-44's and a couple .357's. Never had a problem with the brass.

I new eventually people would way in who actually have real experience firing heavy handgun loads.

.38-44 HV: The Original Magnum - revolver round
by Chuck Taylor

In the hunting field, the .38-44 HV excels, particularly when used in the adjustable-sighted 6" barreled M23 Outdoorsman. In my M23 the 170 gr. Keith SWC handload produces a whopping 1,310 fps and shoots into less than 2" at 50 meters.

Fired cases drop from the cylinder without noticeable resistance when the ejector rod is pressed, showing that pressures are well within acceptable limits. Moreover, examination of fired primers discloses only minor flattening and no cratering, yet another indication that pressures are normal.

There is no doubt that it is safe to load .357 loads in .38 cases.

[zxcvbob]

There is no doubt that it is safe to load .357 loads in .38 cases.

But that .357 load will use a little less powder in a .38 Special case because of the reduced case volume (unless you load them with the bullets seated long to the published .357 OAL's). If you use .357 Magnum data in a .38 case without reducing it you can run into the same problems that I had when I tried to load .38-44's to the original high pressures.

Also, .357 magnum brass is designed for > 35000 psi. .38 Special brass is designed for > 18000 psi, and you don't know how much over. It might be just as strong as .357 brass, or it might not be.

[cnjaxx]

[Stumper]

zxcvbob, I have never used quikload and don't even know how the program works but your load of 11gr. of BlueDot is excessive according to my data sources AND my own load experience. 10 grains of BDot behind a 158grain cast bullet in .357 cases is a Max load in my Ruger. I can also run that 10 grains behind a 173 grain Keith-In Magnum cases crimped in the groove (having a longer cylinder than a S&W lets the Security Six accept that overlength load) but it is a max load in the magnum case. I suspect that quickload is full of prunes-dangerous prunes- if it suggests that 11grains in the Special case was okay. No wonder you ruined the cases.

[Mike Irwin]

"173 gr KT 13.5 grs of 2400Original 38/44 Heavy Duty 38 Special load, loaded using 38 Special +P brass."

Now this is very interesting, Nate.

In the thread in handguns you're claiming to be firing MAGNUM loads in .38 Special cases.

Here you're claiming that they're .38-44 HD equivalent loads (which are NOT Magnum loads) in .38 +P cases in .357 Magnum.

Considerably different set of parameters, don't you think?

I'm beginning to wonder, though, if you know what you're doing.

[nate45]

"173 gr KT 13.5 grs of 2400Original 38/44 Heavy Duty 38 Special load, loaded using 38 Special +P brass."

Now this is very interesting, Nate.

In the thread in handguns you're claiming to be firing MAGNUM loads in .38 Special cases.

Here you're claiming that they're .38-44 HD equivalent loads (which are NOT Magnum loads) in .38 +P cases in .357 Magnum.

Considerably different set of parameters, don't you think?

I'm beginning to wonder, though, if you know what you're doing.

You should be wondering if JohnK knows what he is doing, the quote you attribute to me was his from the handloads.com fourm, and at any rate it would not matter because the primary differense in +p brass and non is the head stamp.

13.5 grains of 2400 with a 173 grain bullet is a 'magnum' load. How bout reading the article and then get back to me.

[nate45]

Mike you claimed that the .357 case is different internally than the .38 special.

.357 and .44 Magnum cases have much thicker head and base wall dimensions than their .38 and .44 Special counterparts.

All drawings I see show that the internal dimensions of the .38 special, .38 special + p and .357 are all the same. The only difference being the length of the .357

All Cartridge brass is composed of 70% copper and 30% zinc.

If you have information to the contrary plz provide a link.

[nate45]

You can see they are nearly identical. What is it again that makes the .38 case so much stronger?

[Prince55]

I haven't tried any .357 loads in .38 Special cases, but after about two months
of testing .357 loads at an indoor range the load I'm using for hunting only is
13.9 gr of 2400 powder with the Hornady XTP 180 gr bullet with Starline cases.
I worked up to 14.5 gr of 2400 and dropped back to 13.9 in a S&W model 66
and also a Ruger Security Six that I just got, both with 4 inch barrels.
I've also shot this load in a Ruger Speed Six 2 3/4 inch barrel and the Rugers
will shoot point of aim at 25 -35 yards but the S&W is shooting about 4-5 in.
high at that distance and the rear sight is adjusted all the way down.
NOW, before anybody has a Heart Attack, I know these loads are well over
any of the manuals and should be Worked Up To CAREFULLY. I dropped back
about 1/2 gr after getting pressure signs. This load has heavy recoil for a .357
and I consider it about the ultimate hunting load in that cal. This is Not a
normal practice load but a once-twice a year hunting load.
This is in a few of my .357's. Some of the others wouldn't even get close
for pressure signs. Ruger's are tough and very accurate as well.
This is related to the original post and I hope it helps some.

Thanks

[Smaug]

From the Lyman 48th edition reloading handbook, the first sentence in the 357 Magnum load data:

"Never use 357 Magnum loads in 38 Special cases as very dangerous pressures will result."

From the 38 Special section:

"Loads designated with a +P symbol are higher pressure loads and must not be used in standard 38 Special revolvers unless the firearm manufacturer has suggested the use of such ammunition in your specific revolver. This caution should not be ignored. Under no circumstances should +P ammo be used in revolvers with aluminum frames and/or aluminum cylinders."

That said, if you're going to do it anyway, you better make sure you think of everything. How strong is the gun? Is the gun at least a modern rated +P? Did you think of the fact that loading 357 charges in a 38 case will result in higher pressures in the 38 case, since it is shorter and the charge may be compressed? Is the thickness of the case head at least as thick as on a 357?

To me, it is too much risk. Get a 357 and do it properly. To think you know better than the folks who actually measure the pressure is arrogant & dangerous.

[Sevens]

If the COAL isn't too long when all is said and done, you could completely sidestep the issue of whether or not .38 Special brass is just as strong as .357 Mag brass simply by taking .357 Mag brass and trimming it to .38 Special length, couldn't you?

In the end, SAAMI and the component makers build in a number of safeguards to our world with the intention of trying to keep handloaders from hurting themselves. There's any number of different safety items you can push a little here and there, all with some level of risk.

In the end, you will do whatever it is that you choose to do. It seems like the discussion here is trying to justify intentionally side stepping some basic rules of safety at the bench. The one that glares at me is just the off chance that even one round with a .38 Special head stamp and some nuclear innards finds it's way in to some old pre-model 10 or a cute little Colt Cobra.

It seems that the possibility of that could be reduced by trimming some .357 brass to length.

[zxcvbob]

I suspect that quickload is full of prunes-dangerous prunes- if it suggests that 11grains in the Special case was okay. No wonder you ruined the cases.

Actually Quickload said it was not OK, but it predicted the maximum pressure at about 39000 psi and I used the load anyway.. Once upon a time, I think the max pressure for .357 Magnums (and .38-44HV) was 40k or 42k and they lowered it when the gunmakers started making lightweight and aluminum alloy framed .357's.

I'm not condoning anything, I learned a lesson here and I'm trying to pass it on.

[Stumper]

Gotcha-

FWIW, I believe actual pressures for the 38-44 were around 30,000 cup-considerably higher than the current .38spl +P standard but less than the .357 as introduced to the market. Of course Keith, Sharpe and others ran the 38-44 to the .357 pressure levels(42kcup) in their experiments but the factory 38-44 loads were more conservative (And I have never heard of anyone blowing up .38 special with the 38-44 loadings.)

[CraigC]

That said, if you're going to do it anyway, you better make sure you think of everything. How strong is the gun? Is the gun at least a modern rated +P?

Reread the original post. He's using published .38-44 loads in a .357 guns. He's well under the SAAMI pressure standard.

I think there's some confusion with some of the terminology used. No one has suggested using .357 data for .38 cases. Rather, .357 velocity and pressure levels in .38 cases. The Chuck Taylor article is a good one and if I remember right, was originally published in American Handgunner a few years ago.

I hear a lot of internet lore about "weak" cases. Don't really know where it comes from. I think a lot of it is speculation, maybe due in part to Elmer Keith blaming a "weak .45 case" for a grenaded SAA. Nevermind the fact that it was a balloonhead case and it was the sixgun that actually let go. Brass doesn't contain pressure, chambers do. The same has been said of modern .45 brass used for "Ruger-only" loads. Forget that Dick Casull developed his .454 in .45Colt brass, loading 260gr bullets to 2000fps. Not to mention what is done today with custom five-shot Rugers. It's the industry-typical oversized chambers that overwork the brass.

To the topic at hand. I've loaded the above mentioned .38-44 load of 13.5gr of 2400 in standard .38 cases as many as 20 times without case head separation, splits or hogged out primer pockets. Only the same minor primer flattening that Chuck Taylor reported. The case mouths will crack from the heavy crimping before anything else. The prudent handloader wouldn't use a case for heavy loads that many times but it was more of an experiment than anything.

It bears mentioning again that .38-44 load data should only be used in original S&W .38-44, post-war Colt SAA and replicas, Colt New Service and .357Mag sixguns. Not momma's .38 snubby.

[zxcvbob]

It bears mentioning again that .38-44 load data should only be used in original S&W .38-44, post-war Colt SAA and replicas, Colt New Service and .357Mag sixguns. Not momma's .38 snubby.

They work really well in a Marlin lever-gun, and they let you load an extra round in the magazine. (I've used 12.5 grains of 2400 with Lasercast 158 RNFP's in .38 brass for this purpose*) It's the closest thing to a legitimate reason I can think of to load something like this other than just for experimentation or a curiosity. But if you're gonna go crazy with it, use a strong sixgun rather than a rifle -- so it doesn't blow up right in your face and send the bolt through your forehead. Or else shoot them with a looong string tied to the trigger the way Clark does.

*it's my zombie load.

[CraigC]

It's the closest thing to a legitimate reason I can think of to load something like this other than just for experimentation or a curiosity.

If you want the effectiveness the .38-44 was designed for, it is necessary. As the original poster stated in the original post, it is necessary in some guns with short cylinders if you want to use the rather long 173gr Keith bullet. Just like I have to do if I want to use the .44 Keith bullet in my Marlins.

It's simply not the wild stray off the beaten path some folks think it is. If you're familiar with the writings of Elmer Keith, John Taffin, Brian Pearce, Ross Seyfried, Skeeter Skelton and the like, you know this stuff is nothing new.

[radom]

That has worked just fine for me in the past. But thats loading the slugs to 357 length so the case capacity is the same as with mag brass. That was also in a Smith 28-2 so I was not too worried about it.

[crowbeaner]

One of the problems faced by any reloader is the thickness of the cases used. I've loaded Norma 38 cases that were very thin compared to say WW yellow brass. Whenever I loaded 357 level loads in 38 brass I used the thicker cases rather than the thinner ones. I've loaded 11.0 of Blue Dot under a 150 grain SWC, but it was in 357 brass. The load was safe in all my Smith 357s, all models. I've also loaded the 13.5 grain 2400 load under a 358429 in both 38 and 357 brass for use in my M27s. The difference is that the 170 grain bullet had to be seated deep into the case and crimped over the front driving band with 357 brass. This raised the pressures, and I could tell because the extraction was a bit more difficult than when loaded in 38 brass and crimped normally in the crimp groove. Certain revolvers will chamber the 358429 seated normally in 357 brass because of the longer cylinder. The M19,66,586 and 686 series notably. I wouldn't load 11.0 of Blue Dot in a 38 case because BD has a tendency to vary quite a bit between lots and cans, and it can be "peaky" with some loads. Just because a load is listed does not make it safe or sane; every gun is different and what may be perfectly safe in my Smith does not mean you can or should load it in your Taurus, Ruger, Colt or what-have-you. I have certain loads that I won't list publicly on this or any other site because I have no control over someone's loading equipment, tools, techniques etc. I may give them to someone privately for their use, but that's it and I always tell them to start lower and work up. You can fit 7.0 grains of Unique in a 38 case, but loading it in a 357 is safer and produces lower pressure. You can do it, but it's your face, not mine. CB.

[nate45]

It bears mentioning again that .38-44 load data should only be used in original S&W .38-44, post-war Colt SAA and replicas, Colt New Service and .357Mag sixguns. Not momma's .38 snubby.

I have mentioned the above several times, perhaps I did not stress it enough.

There is a danger in loading .357 level loads in .38 special cases, mixing them in with other .38s and getting them in the wrong gun.

I have been reloading for nearly all my life and the Keith .38/44 load for over 20 yrs and when I saw this post....

You shouldn't load, under any circumstances, 38 special or 44 special cartridges to magnum load specs!

You cannot safely achieve 357 or 44mag performance from a 38 or 44sp cartridge respectively.

the casings are designed differently to hold the higher pressures.

I responded by saying....

Originally Posted by nate45

The revolvers cylinder walls hold the presure, the case only works more or less like a gas seal.

I load the 173 grain KT over 13.5 grains of 2400(a 'magnum' load if there ever was one') in .38 special cases all the time and see no adverse effects. If I fired it in a .38 special revolver instead of a .357 then I might have problems.

Why do I do it you ask, because loading that bullet in .357 cases has too long an OAL for the cylinder.

You can load any .44 Mag load in .44 spec cases or any .357 load on .38 special cases. Just don't get them mixed up and shoot them in the wrong revolver.

Perhaps instead of any I should have said 'most'. There could be a problem with over compressing large loads of slow burning powder.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...=301526&page=2

I assumed that was very clear and straight forward, but it opened a can of worms. When the old 'weak' brass and different case construction 'theories' came up.

I got a little carried away trying to prove my point and perhaps did not take into consideration those new to reloading. Now I want to make 100% clear that it would be VERY Dangerous to get .38 Special cases loaded with .357 level loads in the wrong gun. My 173 gr Keith loads are in a clearly marked box. I put red fingernail polish on the head across the primer as a warning. This is the only .357 level load I load in .38 cases because the OAL is too long when properly seating the 173 gr KT in .357 cases. Nowadays I only shoot them in my large frame .357s, mostly my S&W 3.5 inch .357 Model of 1950, for nostalgias sake.

Safety is very important and please do not replicate this load unless you fully understand what you are doing and never get these loads mixed up with regular .38 Specials.

[Mal H]

Nate, who is JohnK and why should we believe he knows what he is talking about any more than, say, Mike Irwin?

The single most significant factor is the design specs for .38 Special vs .357 Magnum brass. As first mentioned by zxcvbob, the design pressure for .38 Special is 17,000 to 18,000 PSI, and 35,000 to 38,000 for .357 Magnum. There is no way to get around that fact. Any piece of brass in most calibers can usually take pressures far exceeding their design spec, but not necessarily always. Why push it?