"Gimme your wallet... and your piece."

Netzapper · November 18, 2005, 03:58 PM

Let us suppose that one is mugged by a person armed with a knife, a bat, or some other non-firearm, but decidedly unpleasant, weapon. Let us also suppose that in the process of doing so, they discover your gun and demand that you fork it over.

Considerations of personal injury and draw-time versus knife-in-the-hand aside, is this a shoot or no-shoot situation.

Obviously, if they're unarmed, you give them the finger and punch them in the eye. But, if your options are shoot, or have your weapon taken, what's the proper response?

Lion In Winter · November 18, 2005, 04:01 PM

You posed the question. Let's first hear your answer.

threefivesevenmag · November 18, 2005, 04:06 PM

Use your hand-to-hand fighting skills to try and get distance.

You will probably get cut or hit, just accept that. You'll still live more than likely. You probably won't live if you just give up and let them take your weapon.

Fight for your life. Use determination and skills to buy space and time. Draw, fire, repeat as needed. Move more, scan area, be sure of cover.

When threat is over, call 911 or go for help if possible. Do whatever it takes to stay breathing! NEVER GIVE UP until there is no life in your body.

Again, mental preparation, physical conditioning, hand-to-hand training, timing, and survival mindset hopefully will pay off.

PS: This would be an ugly encounter. A gritty one. Not like the movies. No perfect draw or shooter's stance, probably not a two handed grip on your weapon. Practice and implement those skills when needed.

20cows · November 18, 2005, 04:09 PM

NEVER willingly give your firearm to one who is threatening you with harm!

NEVER GIVE UP!

Silvanus · November 18, 2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Shoot, or have your weapon taken, what's the proper response?

Shoot!

May sound stupid from someone who doesnt(is not allowed to) carry, but... Why do YOU carry? To have your gun taken away from you or to protect yourself from armed criminals?

Radiki · November 18, 2005, 04:11 PM

How about this?

If BG says "Hand over your piece" while not visablly armed, ignore and keep walking.

If BG says "Hand over your piece" while not armed but physically touches you. Relize why the self defense and matrial arts training you have is helpful and put him on the ground, restrain him face down while calmly explaining that any further resistence or threating activity will result is a painful night for him.

If BG says "Hand over your piece" while armed, then move away from his unarmed side while drawing and giving verbal command to back down. Any further forward action on his part constitutes imminent threat-- End it.

If BG says "Hand over your piece or die" that is a verbal threat with imminent danger if he is armed. Therefore, I believe lethal force could be used given no other rational option at hand.

Just my .02

Weeg · November 18, 2005, 04:21 PM

Speed rock if at all possible with dominant hand

Non-Dom is to keep distance between the two of you

Trip20 · November 18, 2005, 04:21 PM

The answer.

jburtonpdx · November 18, 2005, 04:24 PM

Quote:

If BG says "Hand over your piece" while not armed but physically touches you. Relize why the self defense and matrial arts training you have is helpful and put him on the ground, restrain him face down while calmly explaining that any further resistence or threating activity will result is a painful night for him.

While I appreciate the subtle answer and in principle I agree with you, I personally am going to pummel the guy until the threat is gone. I suppose I should ask for better definitions here, I am assuming the guy is walking up and shoving me, or grabbing my shirt, or trying to control my arms or something like that...

Quote:

Considerations of personal injury and draw-time versus knife-in-the-hand aside, is this a shoot or no-shoot situation.

In the original post it was asked what to do if the guy has a knife out and is using it to threatin me. If I am not in a position to draw, I will fight. Every punch, kick, knee, and elbow will be a knock out. It wont stop till the other guy does something to make it stop - pass out, run away, beg for mercy, etc... I am going to make it home for dinner (if you have ever seen me, you know that I have not missed a meal

)

I dont trust anybody that is threatining me with death or sever bodily harm to stop just because I give them what they ask for....

AMT8951 · November 18, 2005, 04:27 PM

Don't ever give up your weapon! Didn't you ever read "The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh (or see the movie)!

Doug.38PR · November 18, 2005, 04:28 PM

do as he says. Give him your piece....the business end that is

Mikeyboy · November 18, 2005, 04:48 PM

First off if your armed, how does a person pull a knife on you and has enough time to realize that you have a gun and then ask you to hand it over???? This is going to sound cruel to some, but let's say the guy in on me, trying to go thru my pockets,and too close to pull without getting stabbed. I would actually talk the guy down, "look, no trouble, I'm not going to fight you" then I would take a step back and draw and blow his brains out. Unless you stink at hiding your weapon (too big of a gun for CC perhaps), he should be shot before he notices your weapon. Ask anyone in LE , never give up your gun.

Mikeyboy · November 18, 2005, 04:59 PM

What is with all this," I'm going to punch and kick the guy with the knife" Non-sense. A lone mugger with a knife is not going to pick someone who is bigger and stronger than himself. Just like bringing a knife to a gun fight, getting into a fistfight with a guy with a knife and leaving your gun in the holster will get you stabbed/dead. I want to see you drawing your weapon with that punch and kick. One good slash or stab and suddenly you find that you can't draw your weapon. Tough luck Bruce Lee.

SBrocker8 · November 18, 2005, 05:01 PM

Why did he find out you're carrying in the first place?

alpineman · November 18, 2005, 05:31 PM

Last time I checked, a knife was a deadly weapon. I'd shoot him.

I'll have none of this hand-to-hand combat stuff when threatened with a knife. I carry a gun because I'm skinny and weak - I've never been in a fist fight, and I don't plan to get into one. I carry a gun so I can protect myself against those who would do me harm.

In such a scenario, I may get stabbed and/or cut once or twice, but the perp is going to get shot way more times than that. My money's on him bleeding out first.

KY lethal use of force laws would be on my side in such a scenario, if I remember my CCW training correctly. The stupid jerk shouldn't have brought a knife to a gun fight.

chrisandclauida2 · November 18, 2005, 05:38 PM

like a movie character once said.OK BULLETS FIRST.

stratus · November 18, 2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netzapper

Let us suppose that one is mugged by a person armed with a knife, a bat, or some other non-firearm, but decidedly unpleasant, weapon. Let us also suppose that in the process of doing so, they discover your gun and demand that you fork it over.

First, be aware enough of your surroundings to minimize the possibility of an attacker getting the drop on you with a knife or a bat. Once a mugger gets that close, you're dealing with variables such that it's no longer a matter of drawing your gun at a safe distance, so I don't feel comfortable coming up with a narrative of what to do. Predetermined tactical tricks are not guaranteed to work when you're that close. Needless to say, find the most efficient way to shift the advantage in your favor and try to keep your cool.

I feel that letting a potential mugger get so close is the main mistake here. Assuming the mugger has picked someone of smaller stature than himself (they usually do), and has a bat or a knife, emerging the victor in unarmed combat would be a tall order unless you have an extreme amount of training (and some do, which would make a situation like this a lot more survivable). But what I'm saying is, when someone has managed to get within range to knock you a good one while you go for your gun, the situation has already deteriorated in a major way. At this point, regardless of how you proceed, you will most likely get hurt. So, accept that, and fight in such a way that your goal is to drive him away from you or momentarily stop him from advancing on you, to where you are able to draw your weapon from a distance of several feet, where the attacker cannot interfere with the process of producing the gun.

This scenario is also THE reason why most people who carry a gun also carry a close-range weapon such as a knife.

jburtonpdx · November 18, 2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

What is with all this," I'm going to punch and kick the guy with the knife" Non-sense. A lone mugger with a knife is not going to pick someone who is bigger and stronger than himself. Just like bringing a knife to a gun fight, getting into a fistfight with a guy with a knife and leaving your gun in the holster will get you stabbed/dead. I want to see you drawing your weapon with that punch and kick. One good slash or stab and suddenly you find that you can't draw your weapon. Tough luck Bruce Lee.

Ok Mike what would you suggest then?

blackmind · November 18, 2005, 06:50 PM

What if this were a situation in which you are corralled with others (or possibly even just alone) and one or several bad guys (armed with knives, not guns) are collecting people's valuables? Some of us, for reasons of practicality and concealment, carry our guns in small bags (either fanny packs or shoulder satchels).

One easily recognizable liability of this otherwise comfortable and convenient method of carry is that such bags would be generally considered "loot" by a robber, and most certainly targeted for taking in the robbery. But of course your desire as a defender would be not only to retain the pack, but also to get into it unnoticed so that you can draw your gun.

Don't think that I have not considered this kind of scenario when choosing to carry in this manner. It's a daily consideration, actually. And yes, sometimes I do go with IWB or shoulder holster carry. One factor in the decision to carry in a bag is that I consciously substitute awareness of my surroundings (and occasional opening of the bag's zipper) for quickness of drawing, if the need to do so should arise.

-blackmind

Netzapper · November 18, 2005, 06:51 PM

Okay, so the general consensus, as I can tell, is this: since you've already been threatened with deadly force, you are justified in shooting. However, that may not work out practically, and so you should probably resort to some other method of pain distribution.

What about a fist fight? What if I've been fairly soundly beaten, am lying there trying not to pass out, and realize that my attacker is going for my weapon? Is it legit to shoot simply to prevent him from getting my weapon?

I suppose the crux of my question is this: we look at the 4 rules of a justified shoot, and we note that means is required. If we analyze this somewhat rigorously, we see that if I give up my weapon there is a transferral of means from me to my assailant (who probably fulfills the other three requirements). So, in handing over my piece, I'm gaining the justification/need to shoot, but losing the ability to do so.

I think that I tend toward the "shoot" response in this situation. If I hand over my weapon, I have lost all control of the situation to somebody who obviously has no compunctions about doing me harm.

stratus · November 18, 2005, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Netzapper

What about a fist fight? What if I've been fairly soundly beaten, am lying there trying not to pass out, and realize that my attacker is going for my weapon? Is it legit to shoot simply to prevent him from getting my weapon?

Yes!

Zen900 · November 18, 2005, 07:03 PM

If the mugger doesn't know you have a gun, give him your wallet without drawing the gun. He could easily swat you with a bat before you could get a CW out to use it. As the mugger is leaving then draw the weapon. The #1 priority is to survive; not pull a gun. The fact that you carry a gun may not actually mean anything if he has the jump on you. If the mugger knows you have a gun then you have no choice but to attempt to draw before he kills you with a single swipe of the bat. Play every situation differently. Most likely the mugger will knock your lights out before you even know he's there. You may not have two options to choose from.

I get the impression that some of you are afraid you will miss out on a chance to use the gun you carry. Don't lose your life going for your CW if you can get out of the situation another way. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean the gun is the first and only option. Your brain is the 1st weapon you should use.

Netzapper · November 18, 2005, 07:17 PM

Zen900: I agree with you. Antis I know regularly ask me why I would shoot somebody just because they wanted my wallet. Every time, I explain to them that I'd probably just give the mugger whatever he wanted. However, my question was specifically about somebody going for my gun. The question is really about the transfer of means as I outlined in my last post. I.E., is it legit to use my weapon prior to a person acquiring the means if it's obvious that he's about to? *shrug* It was really just my mid-afternoon musing.

stratus · November 18, 2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zen900

If the mugger doesn't know you have a gun, give him your wallet without drawing the gun. He could easily swat you with a bat before you could get a CW out to use it. As the mugger is leaving then draw the weapon. The #1 priority is to survive; not pull a gun. The fact that you carry a gun may not actually mean anything if he has the jump on you. If the mugger knows you have a gun then you have no choice but to attempt to draw before he kills you with a single swipe of the bat. Play every situation differently. Most likely the mugger will knock your lights out before you even know he's there. You may not have two options to choose from.

I get the impression that some of you are afraid you will miss out on a chance to use the gun you carry. Don't lose your life going for your CW if you can get out of the situation another way. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean the gun is the first and only option. Your brain is the 1st weapon you should use.

Now that is a QUALITY first post!!

miconoakisland · November 18, 2005, 07:31 PM

Like I told my mother when she got her CWP (a 60 something grandma) recently, the first thing a BG is going to get is your purse. It's almost better to not carry at all, than to have a gun off your person. If a BG pulls a knife, I would pull "My Buddy" (gun). If it's just a "gimme your wallet"-type thing, then I'd give up my wallet (a few bucks and other people's business cards) and be done with the encounter. As for the "and your piece" thing, if I'm gonna pull it out to hand it over, I may as well pull it out with my finger on the trigger and make him rethink his intentions.
As was said before, being aware, alert, and confident goes a long way in avoiding such situations in the first place. Always walk and act like you are supposed to be there, been there hundreds of times before and belong there. BG's are predatory animals, look less appetizing than the guy near you. (I don't have to outrun the bear, just you). I will protect "My Buddy" like I will protect myself. Take my money and business cards, if you want more than that, we have a problem, and I've got a "problem solver".

November 18, 2005, 04:06 PM	#3
threefivesevenmag Senior Member Join Date: May 8, 2005 Posts: 406	Until You Have No More Life In You. Use your hand-to-hand fighting skills to try and get distance. You will probably get cut or hit, just accept that. You'll still live more than likely. You probably won't live if you just give up and let them take your weapon. Fight for your life. Use determination and skills to buy space and time. Draw, fire, repeat as needed. Move more, scan area, be sure of cover. When threat is over, call 911 or go for help if possible. Do whatever it takes to stay breathing! NEVER GIVE UP until there is no life in your body. Again, mental preparation, physical conditioning, hand-to-hand training, timing, and survival mindset hopefully will pay off. PS: This would be an ugly encounter. A gritty one. Not like the movies. No perfect draw or shooter's stance, probably not a two handed grip on your weapon. Practice and implement those skills when needed.

November 18, 2005, 04:27 PM	#10
AMT8951 Senior Member Join Date: June 7, 2005 Location: Central NY Posts: 492	Don't ever give up your weapon! Didn't you ever read "The Onion Field" by Joseph Wambaugh (or see the movie)! __________________ .40 cal Sig 2340 Kahr E9 S&W M65-5 RIA Midsize .45acp Glock 21 Olympic Arms M4 Win M70 .375 H&H FN PBR .308 Win M69A .22 Mini-14 Ithica M37 Deerslayer 12ga Remington 721 30/06

November 18, 2005, 05:31 PM	#15
alpineman Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2005 Location: Kentucky Posts: 227	Last time I checked, a knife was a deadly weapon. I'd shoot him. I'll have none of this hand-to-hand combat stuff when threatened with a knife. I carry a gun because I'm skinny and weak - I've never been in a fist fight, and I don't plan to get into one. I carry a gun so I can protect myself against those who would do me harm. In such a scenario, I may get stabbed and/or cut once or twice, but the perp is going to get shot way more times than that. My money's on him bleeding out first. KY lethal use of force laws would be on my side in such a scenario, if I remember my CCW training correctly. The stupid jerk shouldn't have brought a knife to a gun fight. __________________ Alpinespew http://www.alpinespew.blogspot.com/

November 18, 2005, 03:58 PM	#1
Netzapper Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2005 Location: Gilpin county, CO Posts: 261	"Gimme your wallet... and your piece." Let us suppose that one is mugged by a person armed with a knife, a bat, or some other non-firearm, but decidedly unpleasant, weapon. Let us also suppose that in the process of doing so, they discover your gun and demand that you fork it over. Considerations of personal injury and draw-time versus knife-in-the-hand aside, is this a shoot or no-shoot situation. Obviously, if they're unarmed, you give them the finger and punch them in the eye. But, if your options are shoot, or have your weapon taken, what's the proper response?

November 18, 2005, 04:01 PM	#2
Lion In Winter Member Join Date: January 22, 2005 Posts: 67	You posed the question. Let's first hear your answer.

November 18, 2005, 04:09 PM	#4
20cows Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 376	NEVER willingly give your firearm to one who is threatening you with harm! NEVER GIVE UP!

November 18, 2005, 04:11 PM	#6
Radiki Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2005 Posts: 145	How about this? If BG says "Hand over your piece" while not visablly armed, ignore and keep walking. If BG says "Hand over your piece" while not armed but physically touches you. Relize why the self defense and matrial arts training you have is helpful and put him on the ground, restrain him face down while calmly explaining that any further resistence or threating activity will result is a painful night for him. If BG says "Hand over your piece" while armed, then move away from his unarmed side while drawing and giving verbal command to back down. Any further forward action on his part constitutes imminent threat-- End it. If BG says "Hand over your piece or die" that is a verbal threat with imminent danger if he is armed. Therefore, I believe lethal force could be used given no other rational option at hand. Just my .02

November 18, 2005, 04:21 PM	#7
Weeg Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2005 Posts: 463	Speed rock if at all possible with dominant hand Non-Dom is to keep distance between the two of you

November 18, 2005, 04:21 PM	#8
Trip20 Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2005 Posts: 2,181	The answer.

November 18, 2005, 04:28 PM	#11
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	do as he says. Give him your piece....the business end that is

November 18, 2005, 04:48 PM	#12
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	First off if your armed, how does a person pull a knife on you and has enough time to realize that you have a gun and then ask you to hand it over???? This is going to sound cruel to some, but let's say the guy in on me, trying to go thru my pockets,and too close to pull without getting stabbed. I would actually talk the guy down, "look, no trouble, I'm not going to fight you" then I would take a step back and draw and blow his brains out. Unless you stink at hiding your weapon (too big of a gun for CC perhaps), he should be shot before he notices your weapon. Ask anyone in LE , never give up your gun.

November 18, 2005, 04:59 PM	#13
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	What is with all this," I'm going to punch and kick the guy with the knife" Non-sense. A lone mugger with a knife is not going to pick someone who is bigger and stronger than himself. Just like bringing a knife to a gun fight, getting into a fistfight with a guy with a knife and leaving your gun in the holster will get you stabbed/dead. I want to see you drawing your weapon with that punch and kick. One good slash or stab and suddenly you find that you can't draw your weapon. Tough luck Bruce Lee.

November 18, 2005, 05:01 PM	#14
SBrocker8 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2005 Posts: 111	Why did he find out you're carrying in the first place?

November 18, 2005, 05:38 PM	#16
chrisandclauida2 Senior Member Join Date: September 21, 2005 Posts: 312	like a movie character once said.OK BULLETS FIRST.

November 18, 2005, 06:50 PM	#19
blackmind Junior member Join Date: July 21, 2005 Location: West Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,224	What if this were a situation in which you are corralled with others (or possibly even just alone) and one or several bad guys (armed with knives, not guns) are collecting people's valuables? Some of us, for reasons of practicality and concealment, carry our guns in small bags (either fanny packs or shoulder satchels). One easily recognizable liability of this otherwise comfortable and convenient method of carry is that such bags would be generally considered "loot" by a robber, and most certainly targeted for taking in the robbery. But of course your desire as a defender would be not only to retain the pack, but also to get into it unnoticed so that you can draw your gun. Don't think that I have not considered this kind of scenario when choosing to carry in this manner. It's a daily consideration, actually. And yes, sometimes I do go with IWB or shoulder holster carry. One factor in the decision to carry in a bag is that I consciously substitute awareness of my surroundings (and occasional opening of the bag's zipper) for quickness of drawing, if the need to do so should arise. -blackmind

November 18, 2005, 06:51 PM	#20
Netzapper Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2005 Location: Gilpin county, CO Posts: 261	Okay, so the general consensus, as I can tell, is this: since you've already been threatened with deadly force, you are justified in shooting. However, that may not work out practically, and so you should probably resort to some other method of pain distribution. What about a fist fight? What if I've been fairly soundly beaten, am lying there trying not to pass out, and realize that my attacker is going for my weapon? Is it legit to shoot simply to prevent him from getting my weapon? I suppose the crux of my question is this: we look at the 4 rules of a justified shoot, and we note that means is required. If we analyze this somewhat rigorously, we see that if I give up my weapon there is a transferral of means from me to my assailant (who probably fulfills the other three requirements). So, in handing over my piece, I'm gaining the justification/need to shoot, but losing the ability to do so. I think that I tend toward the "shoot" response in this situation. If I hand over my weapon, I have lost all control of the situation to somebody who obviously has no compunctions about doing me harm.

November 18, 2005, 07:03 PM	#22
Zen900 Junior member Join Date: November 18, 2005 Posts: 72	If the mugger doesn't know you have a gun, give him your wallet without drawing the gun. He could easily swat you with a bat before you could get a CW out to use it. As the mugger is leaving then draw the weapon. The #1 priority is to survive; not pull a gun. The fact that you carry a gun may not actually mean anything if he has the jump on you. If the mugger knows you have a gun then you have no choice but to attempt to draw before he kills you with a single swipe of the bat. Play every situation differently. Most likely the mugger will knock your lights out before you even know he's there. You may not have two options to choose from. I get the impression that some of you are afraid you will miss out on a chance to use the gun you carry. Don't lose your life going for your CW if you can get out of the situation another way. Just because you carry a gun doesn't mean the gun is the first and only option. Your brain is the 1st weapon you should use.

November 18, 2005, 07:17 PM	#23
Netzapper Senior Member Join Date: April 1, 2005 Location: Gilpin county, CO Posts: 261	Zen900: I agree with you. Antis I know regularly ask me why I would shoot somebody just because they wanted my wallet. Every time, I explain to them that I'd probably just give the mugger whatever he wanted. However, my question was specifically about somebody going for my gun. The question is really about the transfer of means as I outlined in my last post. I.E., is it legit to use my weapon prior to a person acquiring the means if it's obvious that he's about to? shrug It was really just my mid-afternoon musing.

November 18, 2005, 07:31 PM	#25
miconoakisland Senior Member Join Date: September 30, 2005 Location: Oak Island, NC Posts: 134	Like I told my mother when she got her CWP (a 60 something grandma) recently, the first thing a BG is going to get is your purse. It's almost better to not carry at all, than to have a gun off your person. If a BG pulls a knife, I would pull "My Buddy" (gun). If it's just a "gimme your wallet"-type thing, then I'd give up my wallet (a few bucks and other people's business cards) and be done with the encounter. As for the "and your piece" thing, if I'm gonna pull it out to hand it over, I may as well pull it out with my finger on the trigger and make him rethink his intentions. As was said before, being aware, alert, and confident goes a long way in avoiding such situations in the first place. Always walk and act like you are supposed to be there, been there hundreds of times before and belong there. BG's are predatory animals, look less appetizing than the guy near you. (I don't have to outrun the bear, just you). I will protect "My Buddy" like I will protect myself. Take my money and business cards, if you want more than that, we have a problem, and I've got a "problem solver".