tumbling bullets :-(

whizz · August 23, 2002, 03:38 AM

Lead Semi Wadcutters 240 gr tumbling and hitting the target sideways. 1 to 2 bullets out of 6 does this. Gun is a S&W 29-4 5".
Jacketed bullets goes very well. Could it be the bullet design?

WESHOOT2 · August 23, 2002, 05:05 AM

What powder / primer / case / bullet brand / OAL / crimp die?

C.R.Sam · August 23, 2002, 05:17 AM

1. Same ?s as WESHOOT2.

2. Are the tumblers (keyholers) coming out of the same chambers each time ? Or is it random ?.

Measure the chambers at the barrel end of the cylinder...they should be all about the same diameter and at least bore diameter. Tight chamber mouth often causes keyholing with cast bullets.

Also could be a timing problem. Is it locking up with each chamber lined up with the bore...every time ?

3. OR, hopefully, just lousy loads.

Sam

whizz · August 23, 2002, 06:18 AM

Powder VectanA1 8.5 gr, primer WLP, case GFL, bullet brand MPS?, crimp die LEE factory.
Random chambers give keyhole. Gun is wery tight. Shortened barrel lately and gun was then also fixed in other ways. Timing is excellent. Same load with Fiocci 240 gr jacketed softpoint has no keyholing and grouping is less than 1.5" at 27 yards.

**Mal H** · August 23, 2002, 07:15 AM

Sounds like you're on the hairy edge of stabilization with that bullet and powder combination. Using the same powder load with a jacketed bullet will yield a slightly higher velocity which is apparently just enough to stabilize the bullet. I don't have a load chart for that powder. If you are not at the maximum for the lead bullet, you might try a little more powder and see what happens.

What is the barrel length of the Mod 29 now?

whizz · August 23, 2002, 07:21 AM

Barrel length 5 inches, as to the powder charge I´m not sure. I do not have a loading table for this either. Some experimenting gave me this charge. 1.5 more grains made the cases stuck in the chambers hehehe ... But with this charge no signs of high pressure can be seen. Cronographed to between 1005 and 1012 fps. Should be enough to stabilize.

**Mal H** · August 23, 2002, 07:37 AM

If the chrono isn't lying to you, then you're right, that should be sufficient velocity to stabilize in a 5" barrel.

I have to question one aspect of your loading practice. Without a guide of any type, don't you think raising a powder load in 1.5 gr. increments is excessive? A1 is a relatively fast powder to be playing around with without any guidance from the manufacturer.

whizz · August 23, 2002, 08:41 AM

You are getting me wrong...
I started out with a load 1.5 gr too high just through sheer calculations ( ehhh miscalculations that is ). When I had fired 6 rounds I kinda understood what had happened and went down 1.5 grains from 10 gr to 8.5 gr. Usually I just go up by tenths or fifths.

Tom Matiska · August 23, 2002, 10:45 AM

Rifling is griping the hard jacket, but slipping on the soft lead and not giving it full spin before it leaves your short bore. First few through a clean bore OK? Then heavy bore fouling? Able to recover any spent rounds and observe marks on the bullet?

Tom

Desert Pete · August 23, 2002, 11:33 AM

Try another brand of cast bullet. My guess is that the ones you are using are too soft for the velocity you're driving them at. Or decrease the velocity and see if they still keyhole. Try another powder. Don't give up on lead bullets because of one bad experience.

whizz · August 23, 2002, 03:28 PM

Tom Matiska,

Think you have a point there, I noticed a lot of lead buildup in the first third of the barrel when I cleaned the gun. Almost as when shooting soft lead through a polygon barrel. Will try the bullets in soft .44 spl at about 850 fps. Thanks for all your suggestions guys.

blades67 · August 23, 2002, 04:41 PM

Slug the barrel and all six cylinder holes. Sounds like the lead bullets are undersize for the guns bore.

**Mal H** · August 23, 2002, 06:16 PM

Bingo! Blades67, I think you're onto something. MPS (Montana Precision Swaging) makes all diameters of bullets not just the standard sizes like .429, .430, etc. You name it, they'll make it.

Whizz can you check the diameter of one of the lead bullets? Slugging the gun is a very good idea as blades67 suggested. We're going to get to the bottom of this puzzle if it kills you.

(I hope that little bit of American humor translates into Swedish ok.)

whizz · August 23, 2002, 07:17 PM

YUP it does (translate OK).

The boxes are marked .429 which might be undersize for this barrel. I will slug it next week as this weekend will be very busy with fine tuning the IPSC skills as a competition is due sep 5th.
I will also have a bullet fired into a water tank to be able to study a fired one.
Have a nice weekend Uall.

**Mal H** · August 23, 2002, 07:24 PM

Yep, I think that's it. You normally want lead bullets to be one or two thousanths larger than a jacketed bullet in the same caliber. So if your Mod 29 is like the majority of them, you are probably getting bullet slide from the lead bullets as Tom suggested. A slower powder with those bullets might work, but a slightly larger diam. bullet is what is called for.

uglymofo · August 23, 2002, 08:49 PM

Firing a bullet may not slug it properly.

To slug it, drive it through by hand with a wooden dowel and a mallet, and then mike it. Once you've got the bore dimension, try a load one thousandth larger, and continue testing by increasing bullet diameter by one thousandths until it stabilizes. The last thing you want to do is use a bullet too large; you'll end up cleaning lead forever. You said you had some leading in the bore already. If you're keyholing, most likely the bullets are too small. If you're leading with that bullet, you may be melting the ass end with a hot load. Combine your hot load with an oversized lead bullet, and you've got a bore disaster what's gonna need a lot of scrubbing.

August 23, 2002, 03:38 AM	#1
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	tumbling bullets :-( Lead Semi Wadcutters 240 gr tumbling and hitting the target sideways. 1 to 2 bullets out of 6 does this. Gun is a S&W 29-4 5". Jacketed bullets goes very well. Could it be the bullet design? __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

August 23, 2002, 05:05 AM	#2
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	What powder / primer / case / bullet brand / OAL / crimp die? __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

August 23, 2002, 06:18 AM	#4
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	more info... Powder VectanA1 8.5 gr, primer WLP, case GFL, bullet brand MPS?, crimp die LEE factory. Random chambers give keyhole. Gun is wery tight. Shortened barrel lately and gun was then also fixed in other ways. Timing is excellent. Same load with Fiocci 240 gr jacketed softpoint has no keyholing and grouping is less than 1.5" at 27 yards. __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

August 23, 2002, 07:21 AM	#6
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	Barrel length 5 inches, as to the powder charge I´m not sure. I do not have a loading table for this either. Some experimenting gave me this charge. 1.5 more grains made the cases stuck in the chambers hehehe ... But with this charge no signs of high pressure can be seen. Cronographed to between 1005 and 1012 fps. Should be enough to stabilize. __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

August 23, 2002, 08:41 AM	#8
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	hmmm... You are getting me wrong... I started out with a load 1.5 gr too high just through sheer calculations ( ehhh miscalculations that is ). When I had fired 6 rounds I kinda understood what had happened and went down 1.5 grains from 10 gr to 8.5 gr. Usually I just go up by tenths or fifths. __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

August 23, 2002, 05:17 AM	#3
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	1. Same ?s as WESHOOT2. 2. Are the tumblers (keyholers) coming out of the same chambers each time ? Or is it random ?. Measure the chambers at the barrel end of the cylinder...they should be all about the same diameter and at least bore diameter. Tight chamber mouth often causes keyholing with cast bullets. Also could be a timing problem. Is it locking up with each chamber lined up with the bore...every time ? 3. OR, hopefully, just lousy loads. Sam

August 23, 2002, 07:15 AM	#5
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Sounds like you're on the hairy edge of stabilization with that bullet and powder combination. Using the same powder load with a jacketed bullet will yield a slightly higher velocity which is apparently just enough to stabilize the bullet. I don't have a load chart for that powder. If you are not at the maximum for the lead bullet, you might try a little more powder and see what happens. What is the barrel length of the Mod 29 now?

August 23, 2002, 07:37 AM	#7
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	If the chrono isn't lying to you, then you're right, that should be sufficient velocity to stabilize in a 5" barrel. I have to question one aspect of your loading practice. Without a guide of any type, don't you think raising a powder load in 1.5 gr. increments is excessive? A1 is a relatively fast powder to be playing around with without any guidance from the manufacturer.

August 23, 2002, 10:45 AM	#9
Tom Matiska Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2000 Location: Wilkes-Barre, Pa Posts: 1,029	Rifling is griping the hard jacket, but slipping on the soft lead and not giving it full spin before it leaves your short bore. First few through a clean bore OK? Then heavy bore fouling? Able to recover any spent rounds and observe marks on the bullet? Tom

August 23, 2002, 11:33 AM	#10
Desert Pete Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 44	Try another brand of cast bullet. My guess is that the ones you are using are too soft for the velocity you're driving them at. Or decrease the velocity and see if they still keyhole. Try another powder. Don't give up on lead bullets because of one bad experience.

August 23, 2002, 03:28 PM	#11
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	Tom Matiska, Think you have a point there, I noticed a lot of lead buildup in the first third of the barrel when I cleaned the gun. Almost as when shooting soft lead through a polygon barrel. Will try the bullets in soft .44 spl at about 850 fps. Thanks for all your suggestions guys. __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

August 23, 2002, 04:41 PM	#12
blades67 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 1999 Location: Chandler, Arizona, USA Posts: 6,014	Slug the barrel and all six cylinder holes. Sounds like the lead bullets are undersize for the guns bore. __________________ Guns cause crime like spoons cause Rosie O'Donnell to be fat! I hunt, therefore I am.

August 23, 2002, 06:16 PM	#13
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Bingo! Blades67, I think you're onto something. MPS (Montana Precision Swaging) makes all diameters of bullets not just the standard sizes like .429, .430, etc. You name it, they'll make it. Whizz can you check the diameter of one of the lead bullets? Slugging the gun is a very good idea as blades67 suggested. We're going to get to the bottom of this puzzle if it kills you. (I hope that little bit of American humor translates into Swedish ok.)

August 23, 2002, 07:17 PM	#14
whizz Member Join Date: January 25, 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 93	YUP it does (translate OK). The boxes are marked .429 which might be undersize for this barrel. I will slug it next week as this weekend will be very busy with fine tuning the IPSC skills as a competition is due sep 5th. I will also have a bullet fired into a water tank to be able to study a fired one. Have a nice weekend Uall. __________________ "When you hear someone shout DUCK, do not do the quack-quack sound ..."

August 23, 2002, 07:24 PM	#15
Mal H Staff Join Date: March 20, 1999 Location: Somewhere in the woods of Northern Virginia Posts: 16,955	Yep, I think that's it. You normally want lead bullets to be one or two thousanths larger than a jacketed bullet in the same caliber. So if your Mod 29 is like the majority of them, you are probably getting bullet slide from the lead bullets as Tom suggested. A slower powder with those bullets might work, but a slightly larger diam. bullet is what is called for.

August 23, 2002, 08:49 PM	#16
uglymofo Member Join Date: August 1, 2001 Posts: 72	Firing a bullet may not slug it properly. To slug it, drive it through by hand with a wooden dowel and a mallet, and then mike it. Once you've got the bore dimension, try a load one thousandth larger, and continue testing by increasing bullet diameter by one thousandths until it stabilizes. The last thing you want to do is use a bullet too large; you'll end up cleaning lead forever. You said you had some leading in the bore already. If you're keyholing, most likely the bullets are too small. If you're leading with that bullet, you may be melting the ass end with a hot load. Combine your hot load with an oversized lead bullet, and you've got a bore disaster what's gonna need a lot of scrubbing.