Pre cut or Muzzle cut for RB target shooting

[HPT]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and to Round ball shooting.

I had tried .54 caliber in my Hawken using both Green Mountain & Colerain barrels and got exactly the same results - average 100 yd 10-shot groups around 7" & sometimes as big as 13".

Phil Piburn has given me advice that has reduced my 10 shot 100 yd groups down to consistantly less than 4" - Thanks Phil! (would have never got there without your help)

Now that I think I'm getting pretty good results I was wondering if there was any gain to cutting the patches at the muzzle? What do the guys who win at Friendship do?

[Pahoo]

As usual, you are going to get varied opinions and you will to have to go through the process of finding out for yourself. Again, remember that good groups mostly come with consistent loading. I go with pre-cut and lubed patches, primarily for that reason. When lube and cut at the muzzle, neither will be consistent. There is a potential problem is you leave the tails to long on a muzzle-cut. ....

Now then, if you are going to be a purest and get into BuckSkinning, the is only one way, Spit and cut at the muzzle, using pillow ticking and a patch knife. I own a few SideLocks that have scribed marks across the muzzle and no mystery how they got "Thar" .......

You did not mention the "Daisies" and some folks feel they are the latest and greatest. For now, I'll pass ....

Be Safe !!!

[HPT]

Hi Pahoo,

I can see how a dull knife could result in a poor cut. I think if I look hard enough I might find a straight razor.

Right now I'm using the .020 Minuteman Teflon coated pre-cut patch (tried their .015, .018 & .020 teflon). Now I have 2 square yards to cut either way

I plan to try both - but was mostly interested in what others have experienced - especially the guys target shooting

[Hawg]

My experience and (YMMV) is muzzle cut is best. You don't have to fool with trying to keep the patch centered and in my experience (YMMV) a patch that's not centered will affect accuracy.

[HPT]

Hi Hawg,

With the short end of the factory ball starter it puts the ball a bit below being "flush" with the muzzle. Would it be better to modify/make one that makes the ball closer to "flush"?

This would result in a smaller dia patch - could that effect accuracy?

[kwhi43]

You want the ball at least 1/16 of a inch below the face of the muzzle to 3/32
then cut. This will give the best for target work.
Phil

[HPT]

Thanks Phil,

I found the straight razor that I thought I had and cut a few just now in the garage - cutting "around" seemed to give a better cut than straight across

Just wondering your opinion on swaged vs cast? I have Hornady swaged right now and wondered if cast would be as accurate?

[FrontierGander]

My .58cal CVA Hawken @ 100 yards with patched round ball. Eye sight is the limiting factor for most of us.


Pre cut patches as well. .020" and home cast .570" balls


Check the condition of your patches that were on the ground?


What brand of Hawken are you shooting?

4" still isn't that bad, but certainly can use improving over time of course!

[HPT]

Hi Frontier,

My Hawken started as a TC but I restocked it and rebarreled it - so I guess the only TC left is the trigger/lock.

My wife's visiting the grandkids (& took both cameras) or I'd be able send pictures of my patches but they look like you could reuse them

I'm already happy with PRB 10 shot groups under 4" and as you state just looking to improve

[FrontierGander]

Look into bedding the tang/tang screws and forestock. Huge difference on my rifles by doing that. I use JB Weld the original stuff that takes about 6 to 12 hours to set up.

[45 Dragoon]

I have to agree with Hawg. I used pre-cuts with my .54 until I started going to matches (late '80s). I watched the old timers shooting itty-bitty groups. Changed to bulk patch (thats what they used) and my groups got MUCH smaller!!
With bulk patch (cutting at the muzzle), it's easier to keep the weave of the material the same each time you load (N.S.E.W.). Consistency is the most important thing when loading any bp weapon.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

[bedbugbilly]

The only way you are going to know is for you to use your rifle and do it both ways.

You got a lot of opinions here . . . in the end, it's what works best for you and your rifle.

Some swear by pre-cut patches - but - are you really that consistent with pre-cut? Not arguing one way or another - nor about which is right and which is wrong. With a pre-cut . . . if you are going for "consistent" . . are you getting the patch centered exactly over the muzzle each time?

I've done it both ways over the years . . and have always gone back to cutting at the muzzle. If you are using patches cut at the muzzle, using the same short starter each time (mine has a show nub to seat the ball close to flush with the end of the muzzle - cut your patch - I figure it is pretty much "consistent" each time. In the rifles I've had, they seemed to shoot more accurately that way. BUT . . . by no means is that the ONLY way.

I went to using strips of patching soaked in the water soluble oil as recommended by Dutch Schultz. I was amazed at how much better my rifles shot using that patching material cut at the muzzle. But again . . . that was in MY rifle and yours may like something different.

I'd really like to hear your results in doing it both ways and see if one tightens you groups up over the other. At 100 yards . . . it sounds like you are doing well! Good luck and keep us posted please.

[mehavey]

A. Make sure ball patch combo is "tight". For me (2" @ 100 w/ Grn Mtn)....
- 535" ball/0.020" ticking/Spit - OR - 1:7 cutting-lube/water (no difference)

B. Cut at muzzle (I just use the rounded "ball" part of the short-starter to just barely set below flush)

[HPT]

Thanks all for the advice

I hope to get some some shooting in on the weekend

Tried to do that yesterday but was too windy

[Rookie21]

I normally pre cut my patches - usually enough for a small plastic bag full. It lasts me several shooting sessions of 50 shots per session roughly. I shoot pistol competitive pistol at Friendship. Pre cutting my patches gives me a faster load time on my timed fire targets and relays or strings. I feel that there may be a uniformity and possibly accuracy advantage to cutting at the muzzle but I pre cut slightly over size to insure a seal. Slightly over size also allows my dumb fingers to center the ball on the patch easier. I'm achieving great scores so I feel accuracy is not sacrificed enough to matter in terms of winning or losing the overal agg. But I still feel that if I wanted to shoot nothing but X ring that cutting at the muzzle could be a benefit. But I'd sacrifice every X in the world if I could shoot nothing but 10's every time. It'll be hard to lose if all you ever shot were 100's.

[robinsroost]

I have tried both ways in my .50 caliber caplock and I can tell no difference, in velocity or accuracy. The precut patches are a lot simpler and quicker to use. I would suggest getting the unlubed ones and lubing them your self. Keep yer powder dry.........Robin

[kwhi43]

I have been shooting 25 years at Friendship on the pistol line and I can't
remember anybody who cut patches on the muzzle. Always pre cut patches.
I cut mine square. Now on the rifle line it is different. Most everybody cuts at
the muzzle. About 40 years ago I saw one of the best shooters of all time and
still is JL Hargis run a test on his bench gun with peep sights using square cut
patches vs cutting on the muzzle. The square cut patch shot a lot tighter group
than the other. After all these years he is still one of the ones to beat at Friendship in shooting anything. A good friend also.

[HPT]

As promised - I did some shooting today testing cutting at the muzzle vs using precut patches.

On my 3rd trip to the "range" (my friends place) I managed to remember the gun & cleaning rod

The temperature was 86 degrees F and wind 10 mph mostly at my back (got tired of waiting for a wind free day)

I used the same load 100 gr FFG Goex & .020" Minuteman patch material and a .535 hornady round ball for both groups. Groups were shot at the same time (1 shot on left target cutting at muzzle then 1 shot at right target using Minuteman precut patch)

Left Group (cut at Muzzle)




Right Group (precut)





Target & Gun




Am I better at aligning a round patch or poorer at cutting one?

I will repeat the test in the near future when there is less wind. I used up my "factory" precut patches - so will have to cut some myself with a tube cutter.

[HPT]

I might have got 11 in left group & 9 in right group - thought I was keeping track - but then again it took me 3 tries to get to the range (forgot the gun then forgot cleaning rod)

[HPT]

Woke up to almost no wind - so asked my boss for today off to continue testing. Went to the "real" range today & brought loads of 100 gr Swiss 1.5fg powder.

The wind was 4 mph from my back & the target was at 100 yds.

Group on left (better than average) was made using precut patches and Group on right (little worse than average) was made using patches that were cut at the muzzle

[Rookie21]

Me thinks we have something here...

[Pahoo]

Either way, these are very respectful groups. .....

Now that I think I'm getting pretty good results I was wondering if there was any gain to cutting the patches at the muzzle? What do the guys who win at Friendship do?

HPT,
That was your original post/question and I feel you have gotten some excellent replies. In my first reply, I mentioned that you should:

and you will to have to go through the process of finding out for yourself

You have done a great job working this out and depending on your expectations going in, looks like you "may" have found "your" answer. ....

Good Work and;
Be Safe !!!

[HPT]

Thanks for the kind words Rookie 21 & Pahoo. Wondering what you guys think about cast vs swaged? What do you guys use in your rifle?