re: a problem with a Winchester 1300 shotgun

[reble]

Before I get into the problem with the Winchester 1300 defender. A bit about me. What I know about firearms I got from Air Force basic training. My MOS was Electronics, 2 way radios and communations. I hold an AA degree in electronics, 2 way radio, tv, vcr and computer repair. I can look at a mechanical blow up picture and figure out how to take something apart and put it back together. Enough about me.
The Winchester 1300 defender shotgun came with a 5 shot tactical holder bolted to the left side. Someone replaced the trigger assembly knockout pin with a bolt that screws into tactical holder on the left side (see the nut with a red circle around it in the attached picture). The shotgun worked just fine that way. When I field striped the shotgun for cleaning after the last time at the range. I tightened that screw a bit to much and bent something. The shotgun still fires but pump won't move period to cycle the old round out and put a new round in without pushing up the manual release button behind the trigger guard. I took it to a local person that knows how to fix it. He knows what part has to be bent back in shape or replaced. But he is a packrat when it comes to books and his work bench is filled with books and he won't clean them off. So I am on my own. He will check the shotgun after I am done working on it to see if it was done right. I also have 2 dummy shotgun shells to test the loading and unloading mechanism with. My problem is that I don't have a 100% clear picture in my head as to which part needs to be bent back or replaced. Can someone please help me.

Steve

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

It sounds like it may have damaged the operating slide lock button. It is made out of pressed sheet metal. The problem is, did it damage anything else?

Anyhow, the button is known as a "Disconnector Assembly", which is really not correct terminology, at Numrich. It is part number 8 on the print. These are generally called the operating slide lock or action lock button.

https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...813.htm?page=2

[reble]

Should I even try to reshape the "operating slide lock button" or just outright replace it? Other then the pump won't cycle without pushing the "operating slide lock button" the shotgun still fires ok. That was already checked at the firing range by a person that knows a lot more about it then I do.

Steve

Dixie said "It sounds like it may have damaged the operating slide lock button. It is made out of pressed sheet metal. The problem is, did it damage anything else?"

[James K]

It sounds like you pinched the receiver when you tightened up the screw and it is binding the lock part between the trigger group and the receiver. Loosen the screw and try removing the trigger group. If you can get it out, try a couple of wood or plastic wedges to spread the sides of the receiver. I doubt there has been any permanent damage to anything, but check the receiver and other parts for cracks before reassembly.

Jim

[reble]

Jim in the blow up picture at https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...813.htm?page=2 whitch part in the picture is the receiver so we are both 100% on the same page.

Steve

[4V50 Gary]

part #8 disconnector is bent? You may be able to bend it back.

It could also be #21, the trigger housing. I can see that if that is bent, the disconnector would be canted.

If it's the receiver, try the wedges. The trigger group should go in and out with certain stiffness, but should not require Herculean effort on your part.

[CowTowner]

whitch part in the picture is the receiver so we are both 100% on the same page.

On this page, #35 is the receiver
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...813.htm?page=5

[reble]

update. When the breech is open. The slide and breech will move forward without using the operating slide lock button. I only need to use the operating slide lock button when the breech is fully closed. When the final tug forward to close the breech all the way that's when the operating slide lock button pops up And the breech will not move without using the operating slide lock button to slide the breech open.

Steve

[4V50 Gary]

The bolt should not open without first depressing the bolt/action release button or by dropping the hammer.

If it worked the other way around, your bolt wouldn't be locked up at all. It sounds like your Win 1300 is working normally.

Now, if the bolt won't open after the hammer has been dropped, there's something wrong. I had that happen to a Rem 1100 that the gas seal was broken and no gases flowed back to unlock the action. I also had that happen to a Rem 760 pump action (like your pump action shotgun) that wouldn't extract (pump back). The problem there was the chamber was dirty and the spent case couldn't come out because of it. A good cleaning took care of that.

[reble]

Gary, the bolt won't open after the hammer has been dropped without using the bolt/action release button. I have a few 12 gauge dummy rounds to test the action with. I just can't get the chamber to open without using bolt/action release button. By the way the shotgun was completely cleaned after the last use.

Steve

[Scorch]

OK, my opinion only here, but if someone is asking what the meaning is of a very basic part name of a firearm, he should not be working on it. Take it to a gunsmith!

[4V50 Gary]

Remove the trigger group. Mind you, as James K warned, if you compressed the receiver by over tightening that nut/bolt combination, removing the trigger group may be hard to do. Also, a compressed receiver may interfere with the operation of the trigger group. If this is the case, take it to a gunsmith to straighten.

Cock the hammer. The disconnector/action release should be in the up position. This is what prevents the bolt from slamming back when the bolt is forward.

Now, release the hammer by pulling the trigger. The disconnector/action release should drop down.

Does this happen?

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

That's why I wondered if it hurt anything else. I imagine the receiver could spring in and cause the button to rub. I don't know if the screw could permanently warp the receiver, but if torqued tight enough, it could spring it inwards.

[reble]

The disconnector/action release does not drop down after the trigger is pulled and the hammer goes forward.

I need to amend the statement above. The disconnector/action release does briefly drop down after the trigger is pulled. But the disconnector/action release doesn't stay down.

Gary said "Cock the hammer. The disconnector/action release should be in the up position. This is what prevents the bolt from slamming back when the bolt is forward.

Now, release the hammer by pulling the trigger. The disconnector/action release should drop down.

Does this happen? "

[4V50 Gary]

Like Dixie Gunsmithing and James K suggested, the disconnector was bent when the bolt was over tightened.

Look at the trigger group from the top and cock the hammer. Observe the disconnector's motion when you drop the hammer. You can probably spot where it hits the trigger housing.

It can probably be straightened. The damage/bend may be further back than where the disconnector bumps into the trigger housing. I'm not sure if it's cheaper to buy a new one and pop it in or to have a competent gunsmith install it for you.

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

The hammer rides on a set of plastic bushings, and they have to go a certain way, and rotate, as that is what operates the action slide lock, via the hammer pin, after the hammer falls. They call these bushings 'hammer spring supports', and they have a D shaped hole and boss, to key them to the hammer, so they will follow the hammers motion. The hammer has a corresponding D shaped hole in it. If these slip, and they do sometimes wear out, it could keep the button from disengaging when the hammer is forward after firing. If they slip, they will not turn the hammer pin with them, and the notch in the pin is what operates the slide lock button where the pin rests in that square hole.

If the slide lock button or 'disconnector' was fouled, and the hammer drops, it could possibly shear the plastic D's off the two bushings or spring supports, since the hammer pin could not turn with them.

I would check these busings. The hammer has to be removed, and both bushings checked that the D boss on them is still good, and not rounded off, so that they will not move without the hammer moving. They should both mate with the hammer, and not twist by themselves against the hammer.

[reble]

I looked and watched and I can barely see the disconnector move when the hammer is dropped. When you talk about the trigger housing do you mean part 45 in the following link? https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufac...813.htm?page=7

Gary wrote "Bet the disconnector was bent by the over tightening of the bolt.

Look at the trigger group from the top and cock the hammer. Observe the disconnector's motion when you drop the hammer. Bet you can spot where it hits the trigger housing.

It can be straightened."

[4V50 Gary]

Dixie Gunsmith is talking about parts #23, the Hammer Spring Support.

[reble]

Dixie that makes sense. I looked at a Youtube video. that showed how to step by step disassemble and reassemble the trigger group. From what I have read the hammer stop pin is supposed to turn in sync with the hammer. What you are saying here correlates with what I have been reading online. I think the bushings have slipped or have worn out because when I move the hammer. The hammer stop pin hardly turns at all. I am beginning to think that 1. tightening the screw to much had nothing to do with the disconnector not working right and that the bushings were worn out already. 2. Maby over tightening the screw damaged the bushings. I am using the same procedures that I use when I am faced with a new radio that I have to fix. I start reading up on everything that I can find about it. I did the same thing before I tried rooting my android cell phone. That was new to me also.
I am going to disassemble the trigger group and check the bushings.
1 question. Is the shotgun safe to fire the way it is now? The reason I ask is my room mate is in the middle of a divorce and custody battle over his 10 year old son. His (soon to be) X wife has gone and gotten a pistol and she isn't mentally balanced. The shotgun is all we have in the apt right now.

Dixie said "The hammer rides on a set of plastic bushings, and they have to go a certain way, and rotate, as that is what operates the action slide lock, via the hammer pin, after the hammer falls. They call these bushings 'hammer spring supports', and they have a D shaped hole and boss, to key them to the hammer, so they will follow the hammers motion. The hammer has a corresponding D shaped hole in it. If these slip, and they do sometimes wear out, it could keep the button from disengaging when the hammer is forward after firing. If they slip, they will not turn the hammer pin with them, and the notch in the pin is what operates the slide lock button where the pin rests in that square hole.

If the slide lock button or 'disconnector' was fouled, and the hammer drops, it could possibly shear the plastic D's off the two bushings or spring supports, since the hammer pin could not turn with them.

I would check these busings. The hammer has to be removed, and both bushings checked that the D boss on them is still good, and not rounded off, so that they will not move without the hammer moving. They should both mate with the hammer, and not twist by themselves against the hammer. "

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

If the hammer spring supports are bad, somebody was making these, at one time, from aluminum, and it would be the berries if you could get a pair of them. I've not looked for them in a while, so they may not be available that way now.

The old ones were a white plastic, probably Nylon, and the newer ones are a black plastic. That is what made this gun weak, as far as the trigger assembly goes.

If they had been solid plastic, a man could have drilled through them, and the hammer, and pinned them with a small roll pin. One might yet, but I've never done it. A pin would sure keep them from rotating. You would have to drill it where there is enough meat to the plastic so it wouldn't crack under pressure. Also, you would have to keep the D hole lined up with the hammer pin inserted, as you drilled them. The problem is getting them in the correct spot on the hammer, so the D that fits the hammer will match where it should.

[reble]

Dixie you were 100% on the money. These are the black plastic hammer spring supports. I have to wait until March 1st when I get my next SSDI check before I can replace the hammer spring supports. Is the shotgun safe to fire with the damaged hammer spring supports in it? The flat part in the hole of the hammer spring supports is rounded out. That's why the hammer stop pin hardly moves. That is the only damage to the hammer spring supports. The shotgun seems to work ok with the dummy test rounds. But unless the opinion here says yes it is safe to use asis I won't use it. All the years of working around radios, tv's and the high voltages in them has taught me safety 1st.

Steve

[Dixie Gunsmithing]

Though I don't think it will, the hammer could get loose on the supports, due to those D bosses wearing off. If it was bad enough, the hammer could rock side to side on the hammer pin and move over slack. That could be dangerous, and cause the sear to let the hammer loose if the gun was dropped, etc. To check that, just let the hammer drop forward, and try to rock the hammer side to side by giving it a push. The hammer should have no movement except rotation about its pin.

I don't know if I'd trust firing it, without making sure that button on the disconnector is down with every shot. If it is fully down, that shows it is blocking the action slide (slide arm bridge) so the bolt can't come open. If the bolt wasn't being blocked, by the action button or disconnector, and it was fired, then the bolt could possibly become unlocked, and fly back when you fire it. That you sure do not want.

I'd recommend not firing that until I got the new spring supports, and fixed any problem with the disconnector button.

[reble]

If that is your recommendation then I will go with it and not use the shotgun until I replace the hammer spring supports. Thanks to everyone that had input on this project. It has been a worthwhile learning experience for me.

Steve

[4V50 Gary]

Reble - if you're interested in learning how to work on firearms, might I suggest you take a NRA Summer School Basic Firearms Repair class at Trinidad State Junior College. At least it will give you an understanding of the operation of the firearm and the function of the parts.

My first class Basic Armorer School (2 weeks) in '84 at Lassen College. It gave me a solid foundation upon which many schools were taken before going through the full two year program at TSJC.