Condition/Value

Uncle Buck · February 1, 2015, 11:03 AM

I recently had a neighbor who wanted to sell me some guns.

One was an Apache Nylon .22 cal rifle. I do believe at one time it was a beautiful gun. This one had a big crack in the stock as well as scratches that made it look like it had been dragged down every gravel road in the county and never cleaned or oiled. She was asking $350.00.

Another was an old Iver Johnson .22 revolver. It appears this pistol was kept just outside the barn door, exposed to all the elements and farm animals. There was no "original" finish anywhere on the gun. But it was an antique and worth $500.00! I could have bought it for a measly $400.00.

I explained that due to the condition of the guns I was not interested in them. She tried to explain to me that she saw on the internet they were worth a lot of money. She just knew I was missing out on a great deal!

I see the same thing in a lot of stores selling used guns. Condition does not seem to be taken in to account when these things are being sold.

Sevens has a very good post in this thread. Post #6. (Value Assessment) http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558075

I sold an old High Point .40 Cal to my nephew (The good nephew, not the one I have mentioned here before) about two years ago. I paid $115.00 for it brand new. I sold it to him for $100.00. He recently sold it at a local auction for $150.00. It was scratched, the slide release would not hold the slide in the open position and he told them it would not hit the broadside of a barn at twenty feet.

It seems that TV shows have convinced people that if it is old it has to be worth a lot of money. What are some of your interesting observations on "deals that are just too good to pass up"?

WVsig · February 1, 2015, 11:36 AM

To me you have to take each and very individual case and assess it on its owne merits. "Condition" is not a absolute objective value IMHO unless it is NIB/Unfired. That is a universal concept which if true is true in all cases and is not depended on the gun in question. To me after that point "condition" is subjective. A 95% Glock 19 is not judge in the same light as a 95% Colt 1911 US Army manufactured and issued in 1918. When looking at older vintage guns providence, originality & correctness matter as much or more than "condition".

This is where the confusion comes from IMHO. People look on auction sites like GB. They watch pawn stars. They watch antiques road show etc... and see someone sell or get a value for a particular gun and think they will get the same for their similar item. They miss the nuances which made said item on tv more valuable then the avg. Auction sites compound the problem because it only takes to fools with too little knowledge and too much $$$ to wreck an auction. LOL

Back to my original thought. "Condition" is somewhat subjective but it is in all cases a huge component to determining value but it is not the only one. Availability is also a huge factor. Availability now and in the future. These nuances are lost on someone who is not a hobbiest. I am pretty good with values on some times of guns but I have to differ to others on things like vintage 1911s and S&W P&R 3T revolvers. I like them but I do not have the depth of knowledge to quote accurate numbers vs those who have more time researching and collecting them.

Also just because it is valuable to someone else does not make it valuable to you. There are guns that people will pay top $$$ for that I have no interest in. My lack of interest does not make them less valuable. I do not think it is just about guns. It is about all sorts of items. People tend to over value what they have as sellers or owners. Sometime the market corrects them sometimes the market rewards them. As the saying goes "There's a sucker born every minute."

**44 AMP** · February 1, 2015, 04:01 PM

The NRA has held a set of standards for generations. It's pretty much the industry standard for what is new, good, fair, etc. Its published all over the place. Blue Book values use the same standards, I believe.

There are two reasons people over value crap guns. One is that they don't know what they have, and the other is that they do, and hope you don't.

A rare old gun with a damaged finish may be worth some money, but every old gun with a damaged finish is not.

Value is subjective, of course. I knew a fellow who paid $450 for a S&W M29 when MSRP was $283.50. Why? so he didn't have to wait two years to get one.

**Aguila Blanca** · February 1, 2015, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVSig

"Condition" is not a absolute objective value IMHO unless it is NIB/Unfired.

I disagree. So do the publishers of The Blue Book of Gun Values, which lists prices in increments of 5% or 10% of condition, all the way down to about 50%. Nothing is "absolute," even the value of a pristine, unfired NIB firearm. But condition certainly matters.

FITASC · February 1, 2015, 09:08 PM

Quote:

But condition certainly matters.

As does desire and availability.

FrankenMauser · February 2, 2015, 12:43 AM

Quote:

It seems that TV shows have convinced people that if it is old it has to be worth a lot of money.

And at the opposite end of that, you have the potential gun buyers that think that EVERYTHING old, or with a worn finish, is just an old hunk of crap that you should be grateful to hand over to them for $75.

I have a pre-Speedmaster Remington 241 that was recently listed for sale. At 98%+ condition, it looks almost brand new. Since it is more of a 'collectible' firearm than a shooter, premium prices are only paid by collectors, and this one has had some minor repair and custom work done over the last 79 years, it's not something that's going to sell quickly.
But... the best offer for that ~$400 rifle was: (Over the phone) $75 and a broken Hi-Point.

...Because it was "just an old piece of crap twenty-two."

But, the gold diggers do seem to be everywhere. My father still thinks (due to being stuck in the '94 AWB), that his well used Colt SP1 is worth $2,000 or more...

**44 AMP** · February 2, 2015, 11:22 AM

Once in a while someone gets lucky and finds the other side of the coin. A friend of mine bought a nice 1903 Springfield (in full GI trim) at a yard sale for a whopping $40! Because it was just "some old army gun". Right next to it on the table was a semi auto .22 with a $100 tag on it.

WVsig · February 2, 2015, 01:59 PM

Quote:

I disagree. So do the publishers of The Blue Book of Gun Values, which lists prices in increments of 5% or 10% of condition, all the way down to about 50%. Nothing is "absolute," even the value of a pristine, unfired NIB firearm. But condition certainly matters.

You completely miss-read and then miss represented what I wrote.

Quote:

"Condition" is not a absolute objective value IMHO unless it is NIB/Unfired. That is a universal concept which if true is true in all cases and is not depended on the gun in question.

NIB/unfired is an "objective value" in terms of a definition. I did not use the term "value" in a monetary sense. A NIB/unfired gun does not have a defined monetary value I agree with that. It does however represent an objective state or "objective value" in a mathematical sense. A=NIB/unifired.

The Blue Book of Guns is an antiquated reference book which 99% of the time is obsolete the moment it hits the shelves. Its 2015 not 1970. The only purpose it serves is as tool LGS and Pawn dealers use to pay as little as possible for the used guns they buy.

Try to buy a S&W 19-1 in 90% condition with box, papers & tools for the price that is listed in the Blue Book. Not going to happen because their pricing does not reflect the current market and has not in years.

22-rimfire · February 2, 2015, 02:57 PM

I like the Blue Book of Gun Values and buy a new edition every two years. When I was more active, I purchased it yearly. It has more information in it than prices or price as compared to condition. Their pricing is frequently low for firearms that are in demand and sometimes a bit high for the ones that are not selling so well. But it is another information source and the first place I look for an approximate value if I seek the information. Next step is closed auctions and compare to the Blue Book and so forth.

Honest dealers will tell you what they feel the value of a firearm is to them. They are purely buying for resale and a gun that sells quickly is one that they are more likely to price higher. Typically their pricing is 30-50% less than the price that they think they can get. (Modified that a tad)

Condition is always important. People look up a gun and see high prices but when they compare it to their gun that is rusty and has a lot of finish wear, the value will usually be a lot less. My Dad's wife was like that and was convinced that her double barrel shotgun was "worth a lot of money" as that is what a gun shop told her. I looked it up and it wasn't real valuable in the Blue Book. She was thinking it was worth 100's more... such is life. I don't worry about it.

Stuff is worth only what someone is willing to pay. That's a fact.

Uncle Buck · February 2, 2015, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Stuff is worth only what someone is willing to pay. That's a fact.

And that is what it comes down to. I have a few collectible firearms, but most of what I own is the shoot'em and clean'em and back in the range bag for next time. (Although it has been awhile from the last time to this next time... I need to get out and do some shooting.)

I understand people asking high prices for anything they sell. I would want to get the best price for anything I sell, but I do not believe in shooting for the moon when all I have is a bottle rocket.

22-rimfire · February 2, 2015, 10:44 PM

You can usually get a higher price for a gun if you sell it yourself. But that takes effort and if you are seeking top dollar, then you usually have to wait and may have to reduce your price.

If a gun shop wants your particular gun, it is money up front, but they want to make a healty profit on it. Or you can sometimes put your firearms on consignment at a gun shop that does that.

Skans · February 3, 2015, 09:57 AM

Since I'm the "go-to-guy" for guns in my circle, I see this a lot. It seems like everyone has one or two old, beat up revolvers they want to get rid of or a post-64 Winchester with the typical finish problems. I've developed a nice responses like:

1. If my wife catches me bringing home one more gun, she'll shoot me with it.
2. That's a neat old gun, but it's just not something I collect or shoot.
3. My safe is full, I just don't have room for another rifle.

The truth is that with non-gun folks, not all guns people have or inherit are junk; just the ones they try to pawn off on others. In other words, even non-gun people know how to use the internet and typically keep the good stuff for themselves.

KEYBEAR · February 7, 2015, 10:38 AM

I had a brother-in-law that did a lot of hunting birds and loved the Auto 5 .
When Winchester started making the Commemoratives he proudly bought each new offering . He was happy to tell me at every opportunity how much the value would increase over the years .

Well as it happen he got old and sick his hunting days were long past . He got to the point he could no longer walk very well and was in the house most of the time . He past away 4 years ago and I got the job of selling his guns .

The Auto 5,s sold well but the Winchesters are still in the safe . My Brother-in-law in his last years was fond of setting in front of the TV and play with the Winchesters . They are no longer like new but are unfired most show a lot of wear and are just old Rifles .

rock185 · February 9, 2015, 11:54 PM

I see what you mention routinely. If it's old, it must be a valuable "collectors item", no matter the condition. Once in awhile I see guns that might have been desireable in excellent consition, but are crudely gunsmithed, some ruined, look like they were dug up from under a Mexican jail, etc. Doesn't matter. Same price, or more, than an excellent example of the same gun would command.

Ref the Blue Book, I have always wished I could buy guns at anywhere near the prices listed in that publication. When trading, more often than not the seller pulls out the Blue Book to show how little my trade in is worth. I have never, ever, had a dealer,or gun show seller, pull out the Blue Book to show how valuable the seller's gun is. I think I see a pattern here......ymmv

FITASC · February 10, 2015, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Try to buy a S&W 19-1 in 90% condition with box, papers & tools for the price that is listed in the Blue Book. Not going to happen because their pricing does not reflect the current market and has not in years.

That also depends on where you live. I see posts all the time about folks finding a S&W 10 turn in for $200, but around here, they sell for about twice that amount - just all depends on what is popular where you are.

**44 AMP** · February 10, 2015, 11:46 PM

Got news for some of you kids, even waaay back before the dawn of internet history, when ALL there was, was the printed books, the Blue Book prices were not accurate. Or rather not always accurate.

The time lag between getting the data and getting it published always meant the listed prices were "behind the curve". Local demand could not be accounted for in the book. Serious dealers and traders ALL knew this. The book was a guideline, not the law. It gave a standard for a starting point for negotiations (haggling), and was not regarded as the absolute pricing, good or bad.

Dealers are always happy to go "by the book" when its to their advantage. Some I've seen don't deign to haggle. Book price (or more if they can get it) is all they recognize.

What I recognize is that these people tend to have the same guns on their tables, show after show, month after month. Not the same models, the same individual overpriced guns!

The real value in the Blue Book is not the accuracy of their pricing to current levels, but in the huge number of guns listed, models, and descriptions, and in the differences in price between the different levels of condition, which stays relatively constant, even thought the dollar amount for each fluctuates.

February 1, 2015, 11:03 AM	#1
Uncle Buck Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2009 Location: West Central Missouri Posts: 2,592	Condition/Value I recently had a neighbor who wanted to sell me some guns. One was an Apache Nylon .22 cal rifle. I do believe at one time it was a beautiful gun. This one had a big crack in the stock as well as scratches that made it look like it had been dragged down every gravel road in the county and never cleaned or oiled. She was asking $350.00. Another was an old Iver Johnson .22 revolver. It appears this pistol was kept just outside the barn door, exposed to all the elements and farm animals. There was no "original" finish anywhere on the gun. But it was an antique and worth $500.00! I could have bought it for a measly $400.00. I explained that due to the condition of the guns I was not interested in them. She tried to explain to me that she saw on the internet they were worth a lot of money. She just knew I was missing out on a great deal! I see the same thing in a lot of stores selling used guns. Condition does not seem to be taken in to account when these things are being sold. Sevens has a very good post in this thread. Post #6. (Value Assessment) http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=558075 I sold an old High Point .40 Cal to my nephew (The good nephew, not the one I have mentioned here before) about two years ago. I paid $115.00 for it brand new. I sold it to him for $100.00. He recently sold it at a local auction for $150.00. It was scratched, the slide release would not hold the slide in the open position and he told them it would not hit the broadside of a barn at twenty feet. It seems that TV shows have convinced people that if it is old it has to be worth a lot of money. What are some of your interesting observations on "deals that are just too good to pass up"? __________________ Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen.

February 1, 2015, 11:36 AM	#2
WVsig Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2010 Location: NC Posts: 5,309	To me you have to take each and very individual case and assess it on its owne merits. "Condition" is not a absolute objective value IMHO unless it is NIB/Unfired. That is a universal concept which if true is true in all cases and is not depended on the gun in question. To me after that point "condition" is subjective. A 95% Glock 19 is not judge in the same light as a 95% Colt 1911 US Army manufactured and issued in 1918. When looking at older vintage guns providence, originality & correctness matter as much or more than "condition". This is where the confusion comes from IMHO. People look on auction sites like GB. They watch pawn stars. They watch antiques road show etc... and see someone sell or get a value for a particular gun and think they will get the same for their similar item. They miss the nuances which made said item on tv more valuable then the avg. Auction sites compound the problem because it only takes to fools with too little knowledge and too much $$$ to wreck an auction. LOL Back to my original thought. "Condition" is somewhat subjective but it is in all cases a huge component to determining value but it is not the only one. Availability is also a huge factor. Availability now and in the future. These nuances are lost on someone who is not a hobbiest. I am pretty good with values on some times of guns but I have to differ to others on things like vintage 1911s and S&W P&R 3T revolvers. I like them but I do not have the depth of knowledge to quote accurate numbers vs those who have more time researching and collecting them. Also just because it is valuable to someone else does not make it valuable to you. There are guns that people will pay top $$$ for that I have no interest in. My lack of interest does not make them less valuable. I do not think it is just about guns. It is about all sorts of items. People tend to over value what they have as sellers or owners. Sometime the market corrects them sometimes the market rewards them. As the saying goes "There's a sucker born every minute." __________________ -The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; February 1, 2015 at 11:55 AM.

February 1, 2015, 04:01 PM	#3
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	The NRA has held a set of standards for generations. It's pretty much the industry standard for what is new, good, fair, etc. Its published all over the place. Blue Book values use the same standards, I believe. There are two reasons people over value crap guns. One is that they don't know what they have, and the other is that they do, and hope you don't. A rare old gun with a damaged finish may be worth some money, but every old gun with a damaged finish is not. Value is subjective, of course. I knew a fellow who paid $450 for a S&W M29 when MSRP was $283.50. Why? so he didn't have to wait two years to get one. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 2, 2015, 11:22 AM	#7
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	Once in a while someone gets lucky and finds the other side of the coin. A friend of mine bought a nice 1903 Springfield (in full GI trim) at a yard sale for a whopping $40! Because it was just "some old army gun". Right next to it on the table was a semi auto .22 with a $100 tag on it. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 2, 2015, 02:57 PM	#9
22-rimfire Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5,323	I like the Blue Book of Gun Values and buy a new edition every two years. When I was more active, I purchased it yearly. It has more information in it than prices or price as compared to condition. Their pricing is frequently low for firearms that are in demand and sometimes a bit high for the ones that are not selling so well. But it is another information source and the first place I look for an approximate value if I seek the information. Next step is closed auctions and compare to the Blue Book and so forth. Honest dealers will tell you what they feel the value of a firearm is to them. They are purely buying for resale and a gun that sells quickly is one that they are more likely to price higher. Typically their pricing is 30-50% less than the price that they think they can get. (Modified that a tad) Condition is always important. People look up a gun and see high prices but when they compare it to their gun that is rusty and has a lot of finish wear, the value will usually be a lot less. My Dad's wife was like that and was convinced that her double barrel shotgun was "worth a lot of money" as that is what a gun shop told her. I looked it up and it wasn't real valuable in the Blue Book. She was thinking it was worth 100's more... such is life. I don't worry about it. Stuff is worth only what someone is willing to pay. That's a fact. Last edited by 22-rimfire; February 2, 2015 at 10:41 PM.

February 2, 2015, 10:44 PM	#11
22-rimfire Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2005 Location: Tennessee Posts: 5,323	You can usually get a higher price for a gun if you sell it yourself. But that takes effort and if you are seeking top dollar, then you usually have to wait and may have to reduce your price. If a gun shop wants your particular gun, it is money up front, but they want to make a healty profit on it. Or you can sometimes put your firearms on consignment at a gun shop that does that.

February 3, 2015, 09:57 AM	#12
Skans Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2008 Posts: 11,132	Since I'm the "go-to-guy" for guns in my circle, I see this a lot. It seems like everyone has one or two old, beat up revolvers they want to get rid of or a post-64 Winchester with the typical finish problems. I've developed a nice responses like: 1. If my wife catches me bringing home one more gun, she'll shoot me with it. 2. That's a neat old gun, but it's just not something I collect or shoot. 3. My safe is full, I just don't have room for another rifle. The truth is that with non-gun folks, not all guns people have or inherit are junk; just the ones they try to pawn off on others. In other words, even non-gun people know how to use the internet and typically keep the good stuff for themselves.

February 7, 2015, 10:38 AM	#13
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	I had a brother-in-law that did a lot of hunting birds and loved the Auto 5 . When Winchester started making the Commemoratives he proudly bought each new offering . He was happy to tell me at every opportunity how much the value would increase over the years . Well as it happen he got old and sick his hunting days were long past . He got to the point he could no longer walk very well and was in the house most of the time . He past away 4 years ago and I got the job of selling his guns . The Auto 5,s sold well but the Winchesters are still in the safe . My Brother-in-law in his last years was fond of setting in front of the TV and play with the Winchesters . They are no longer like new but are unfired most show a lot of wear and are just old Rifles .

February 9, 2015, 11:54 PM	#14
rock185 Senior Member Join Date: September 2, 2001 Location: Out West in Rim Country Posts: 1,093	I see what you mention routinely. If it's old, it must be a valuable "collectors item", no matter the condition. Once in awhile I see guns that might have been desireable in excellent consition, but are crudely gunsmithed, some ruined, look like they were dug up from under a Mexican jail, etc. Doesn't matter. Same price, or more, than an excellent example of the same gun would command. Ref the Blue Book, I have always wished I could buy guns at anywhere near the prices listed in that publication. When trading, more often than not the seller pulls out the Blue Book to show how little my trade in is worth. I have never, ever, had a dealer,or gun show seller, pull out the Blue Book to show how valuable the seller's gun is. I think I see a pattern here......ymmv __________________ COTEP 640, NRA Life

February 10, 2015, 11:46 PM	#16
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	Got news for some of you kids, even waaay back before the dawn of internet history, when ALL there was, was the printed books, the Blue Book prices were not accurate. Or rather not always accurate. The time lag between getting the data and getting it published always meant the listed prices were "behind the curve". Local demand could not be accounted for in the book. Serious dealers and traders ALL knew this. The book was a guideline, not the law. It gave a standard for a starting point for negotiations (haggling), and was not regarded as the absolute pricing, good or bad. Dealers are always happy to go "by the book" when its to their advantage. Some I've seen don't deign to haggle. Book price (or more if they can get it) is all they recognize. What I recognize is that these people tend to have the same guns on their tables, show after show, month after month. Not the same models, the same individual overpriced guns! The real value in the Blue Book is not the accuracy of their pricing to current levels, but in the huge number of guns listed, models, and descriptions, and in the differences in price between the different levels of condition, which stays relatively constant, even thought the dollar amount for each fluctuates. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.