Handgun Accuracy

[Ole 5 hole group]

Handgun Accuracy – What does the term really mean? I’ve read numerous posts on several forums where individuals have worked up some nice loads for their revolver or pistol which places 5 rounds in a 0.5 inch hole measured center to center at 50 yards. They then insinuate they can shoot this group all day long. I’m just amazed at the statement. I’ve got a couple custom pistols made by ole master gunsmiths and with the right load they can shoot just a hair over 2 inches at 50 yards from a ransom rest. Now these pistols can shoot that size group all day long – I only wish I could. The gunsmiths back then who "accurized" my 1911's would only guarantee 3 inch or less 10-shot groups with their recommended load. (Today they guarantee 2.5 inches at 50 yards) I’ve got a few bench rifles that are capable of shooting 0.09 inch or slightly less groups all day long with the proper load. Again, I wish I could shoot that size group just ONCE in a match. I’ve done a 0.102 to 0.120 inch several times but have never shot a zero group yet. (I put up $3 and called for a re-measure of the 0.102 group hoping for a zero group but they kept my money, as my group was re-measured and found to be larger) To me, good handgun accuracy at 50 yards is a load that can shoot a 10-shot group measuring 3 to 5 inches fairly consistently off a good bench. Off-hand, Ya, sometimes you can wiggle and wobble a 3” group a couple times in your lifetime but then again maybe not. I’ve shot a few scores of 100 at 50 yards in 2700 pistol but they were damn few and far between too. Those who post 2600 plus scores – ya, they can do it several times in a match but they are the cream of the crop too. I would be very happy at 50 yards off hand to keep all my shots within a 9 inch circle every time. I guess my point is – if there are so damn many shooters out there with revolvers that are capable of shooting half inch groups and they are capable of shooting these groups at will – why in the hell aren’t they shooting competitively and setting world records???

[James K]

It is very easy to shoot tiny groups at long distances when you have never fired a gun in your life and just like to post nonsense on these web sites.

Jim

[CraigC]

I can manage 2"@50yd groups with a few of my sixguns benchrested, if I hold my mouth right and eat my Wheaties that morning. Anybody who claims to shoot half inch groups at 50yds offhand is smoking something. Freedom Arms or a similarly built custom would be about the only thing capable of such accuracy but never "all day long".

[darkgael]

which places 5 rounds in a 0.5 inch hole measured center to center at 50 yards.

I'd pay to see that. I've yet to come upon such a claim. I wonder what gun/load can produce such a group.
BTW- shooting 100 at 50 yards is a remarkable achievement. I haven't done it even once, close, but no clean target. Good for you

[stevieboy]

For me, a GREAT day at the range is putting all six from a double action revolver off hand, shot da, into the black 9 & 10 rings of a standard target at 25 yards. On the relatively few occasions when I do that I am in a good mood afterwards, generally for several days. But, in truth, such moments don't come all that often for me. And, even if I get a group like that I'm not going to get it done consistently. Invariably, I'll get at least one shot outside of the 9 ring at that distance.

[Casimer]

I wonder what gun/load can produce such a group.

There are free pistols that are capable of 1 MOA w/ the right ammo, and when locked into a testing rig.

[JayCee]

Here's a group I shot with a Freedom Arms 454 at 50 yards:



Can I do this consistently? No way. I just can't hold steady enough for consistent accuracy at that range. Invariably two or three of the five rounds will go wide. But once in a while, everything comes together...

[erikrichard]

I stopped believing any such claims unless I see it. At the 50 foot firing range I go to, 2" groups are very rare. 50 yard? BULL****.
You want honesty? I can consistantly shoot my Colt SAA .357 mag at 50 feet, all shots within 2" of the bullseye (4" groups). That to me means chest shots at 50 feet, every shot. Of course, that's single action, taking time to aim, holding my breath - not the real world facing an attacker, but good enough for me.
With my 2" Detective Special, at 50 feet I'm lucky to hit the paper all 6 shots. Granted I'm using a 25 yard pistol target which is pretty damn small, I'd say I hit the paper 4/6 shots. At 25 feet it's a different story - I consitantly hit all within 2" of the bullseye.
I've been told by others at my range I'm a better than average shooter, and I believe it. I've read boasts of 2" groups at 100 yards with an unscoped handgun, unsupported. Way too many story tellers on the internet.

[Paul105]

I’ll share my recent experiences. I retired a while back, and over the last several years I’ve shot a lot. It’s been a lot of fun and it has also been frustrating. I’ve worked hard to become decent shot, but can’t seem to get beyond that. 99% of my shooting is offhand, mostly at 50 yards (8” plates), but some closer/faster stuff and some distance stuff out to a couple of hundred yards.

The following two targets were shot offhand at 50 yards in response to a “show your target challenge” on one of the other shooting forums. The top pic was shot first with no warm up, and is from a 6” Freedom Arms .475 Linebaugh, loaded with 420gr WFNGCs at chronoed 1,300 fps. I bought the .475 a year ago in August and have shot right at 11,000 round thru it – mostly 400gr at 1,100 fps. I shoot this gun as well as any gun I own including .22s. This is a better than average group for me, but certainly not exceptional.

The second (shot after the .475 target) is from a 4 ¼” Freedom Arms Model 97 .45 Colt loaded with 315gr SWCGCs at a chronoed 1,140 fps. There are three, 5 shot groups. The numbers represent each individual 5 shot group. I’ve had this gun since Dec of ’05 and have shot over 10,000 rounds thru it.





My all day everyday carry gun is a S&W 329 PD .44 Mag. At 26oz, it is hard to hold steady, recoil is substantial, and the fiber optic front and V notch rear combine to make this revolver hard to shoot well. The more I shoot it during the same session, the more my accuracy deteriorates. I’ve had three of these guns (still have 2), and have shot over 8,000 rounds of .44 Mag level loads thru them. I actually shoot it better double action, and up close and personal have a great deal of confidence in my ability to use it effectively.





Here are some groups from various guns and loads from a sandbagged position at 50 yds. Each target was shot during the same session but on different days, testing loads and sight settings.



The .454 load shown on the following target is the most consistently accurate load I have found for any of my guns.



A couple of thoughts. You’ll notice that most of the bench rested .475 and .454 loads are only 3 shot groups – that’s because they basically show me what I want to know and the recoil from the bench in no fun with these guns. Groups would be larger with more shots (that one load in the 454 excepted).

I would be very pleased with 5 shot groups of 3” at 50 yds from a sandbagged rest. I just can’t consistently shoot better than that.

I have good days and bad days like most everone, but would be very comfortable saying that I could do 9” offhand at 50 yards on demand with anything I have except maybe the 329PD. Not great, but as good as I can do – not infrequently I end up with that one thrown shot.

Paul

[Paul105]

Here are the three guns mentioned above.



Paul

[Elvishead]

I still never seen anybody shoot 2" groups at mer 25 yards with a snubby.

I can get 3 out of 5 within 3"'s with a few flyer's every time it seems. I even took a Video if anybody ever doubted it.

[darkgael]

Casimer:

There are free pistols that are capable of 1 MOA w/ the right ammo, and when locked into a testing rig.

Yes, that's true. Thanks for reminding me. I have one, a Pardini. But Free Pistols are .22s and though it wasn't said, I got the impression that the OP was referring to centerfire pistols.
Pete

[MrBorland]

Threads like this helped motivate me to put together threads like this:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...02#post3216402

Forget about the "other" guy and his gun. Here's your chance to show your stuff with your gun. We'll see entries from everyone on this thread, right?

[5Wire]

Camp Perry Competition

NATIONAL CHAMPION: ZINS, BRIAN 2643 131x

2ND: SSG HENDERSON, JAMES, USA 2634 117x

3RD: CPT HEMPHILL, PHILIP W. 2631 121x

I believe, but can not confirm, these are aggregate scores in sets of three stages over two or three days using the NRA B-16 Target with a total possible score of 2700 300x (hopefully, someone who knows will post to clarify this):

• Slow fire at 25 yds.
• Timed fire at 17 yds.
• Rapid Fire at 17 yds.

The B-16 X-Ring is 0.67 in, the 10-Ring is 1.51 in. This means shooters had to hit in the 10-ring quite a few times to get to these scores.

I doubt a Ransom Rest could yield these results. I'm happy to keep everything inside the 9-ring on a B-3 target at 7 yds.

[CraigC]

Rimfire autos are really a whole nuther animal. 2MOA is the norm and 1MOA is not out of the question, especially with a good aftermarket barrel. My Buckmark Bullseye will, on occasion, surprise me with ¼"@25yd groups from the bench if I do my part. Obviously it's unfair to compare to most if not all centerfires.

[WESHOOT2]

What I can do on demand nowhere near equals what I have done on a real good day when I was lucky.

But I am utterly aware of proven potential from certain guns I own.
1" at 25 yds; yep.
Just not on demand.

[CraigC]

Here's a couple hastily-snapped pics of what I could dig out. I apologize in advance for the poor quality. Before anybody cries foul, ALL these groups pictured were shot from sandbags, NOT offhand.

The first one is my Clements custom Ruger Bisley .44Magx7½". Factory chambers and barrel, barrel set back one thread, recrowned, recut forcing cone, headspace adjusted, barrel/cylinder gap adjusted, action job and custom front sight among other things. The left target was shot at 25yds with a commercial cast 240gr SWC over 19.0gr 2400, the middle with a 300gr XTP. Both are in the one inch category without the middle flyer. The right target was shot at 50yds with a 240gr Gold Dot over 25.0gr H110 and is just under two inches.



The second was also remodeled by Clements but is mostly cosmetic work and handling modifications. No alterations were made that would affect accuracy. The target was shot at 50yds with a commercial cast 240gr SWC over 10.0gr Unique and measures just under three inches. For some reason it was six shots rather than the usual five. This is fairly common with the better groups hovering around two inches with this sixgun.



Couldn't find any others. I moved two years ago so some of my targets may be still packed, in storage or MIA. So if anybody wants to call me out on it I don't really have much of a defense. But I do know that my 629MG, 6" 29-3, Super Redhawk .480 and Dad's Bisley Hunter .44 are all capable of similar accuracy (2"@50yds). When the shooter is up to it.

[mstuhr]

Howdy,
I do my ammo testing with a scope off of bags. .5 @ 50 yards is not out of the question with good ammo. Lou Lombardi barrel makes it possible along with a very nice trigger.

A well built PPC gun can be a terror at 50 yards too.
Thanks
Mike

[CraigC]

Here's what Dad's Bisley Hunter .44 does at 25yds. The left hole is three shots, it is extremely consistent with this load, a commercial 240gr SWC over 9.0gr Titegroup. Always three in one hole with the other two scattered. I want to spend some more time with this sixgun and see what it can do.

[dahermit]

Here's what Dad's Bisley Hunter .44 does at 25yds. The left hole is three shots, it is extremely consistent with this load, a commercial 240gr SWC over 9.0gr Titegroup. Always three in one hole with the other two scattered. I want to spend some more time with this sixgun and see what it can do.

Supported or off hand?

[kraigwy]

I put zerro stock in tiny groups, and less then zerro on groups I see posted on the internet.

I've been shooting a long time, I've seen tons of of so called sub minute rilfes, even pistols.

I've never seen a clean 50 yard bullseye target. In high power and 1000 yard matches the X-10 ring is about 2 minutes. How many cleaned targets have you seen?

Accuracy is NOT THE GUN: Accuracy to me is the GUN-SHOOTER-AMMO combination. You judge accuracy by looking at the scores, not groups.

3 or 5 or 10 shot groups mean nothing to me. A diecent twenty to fourty round scores at 1000 yards on a windy day impresses me.

Consistency at 2700 matches impress me.

Shooting a coyote in your undies and bare feet in six inches of snow while its running away with one of my chickens it its mouth, impresses me.

A clean one shot kill of an antilope on a cold brisky morning while setting or kneeling on a pile of prickly bear cactus impresses me.

GySgt Carlos Hathcock impressed me, I know what SE Aisa shooting conditions were like. OH By the Way, Hathcock used a Model 70 '06 that was capable of shooting 2 mins on a good day.

But hey, thats just my personal opinion.

[CraigC]

Supported or off hand?

Benched.

You judge accuracy by looking at the scores, not groups.

I judge the accuracy of a sixgun/load combination by what it will do off the bench. Load testing cannot be done any other way. I don't compete and don't plan to so "scores" and what you can do off your hind legs do not interest me in the least. I want to know what the guns can do. Then I know it's up to me to do the rest. Which is why you'll never see me post an offhand group. I don't see the point, other than to brag. In a discussion about the accuracy potential of the guns, it is immaterial anyway. I usually do my best to avoid internet "measuring" contests, which apparently is where this is headed.

A decent twenty to forty round scores at 1000 yards on a windy day impresses me.

Consistency at 2700 matches impress me.

Shooting a coyote in your undies and bare feet in six inches of snow while its running away with one of my chickens it its mouth, impresses me.

A clean one shot kill of an antelope on a cold brisky morning while setting or kneeling on a pile of prickly bear cactus impresses me.

GySgt Carlos Hathcock impressed me, I know what SE Asia shooting conditions were like. OH By the Way, Hathcock used a Model 70 '06 that was capable of shooting 2 mins on a good day.

How exactly does any of that relate to a discussion about handgun accuracy?

By your standards, the shot I made last winter on a trotting fox, putting one shot in the boiler room through brush at 35yds with a Single Six should "impress" you but how does that relate to a discussion about handgun accuracy? It doesn't, at all. IMHO, some folks just fall all over themselves to tell us how "not impressed" they are.

[kraigwy]

Guns is Guns: Accuracy is accuracy.

As I stated, Accuracy is a combination of SHOOTER-GUN-AMMO,

Rifle or pistol, it matters not.

Rifle or Pistol: Its the end game that counts. I'll give you an example, I was doing monthy qualifications. An offers comes in, and as he normally does, he maxes the qualification. 2o minutes later, at a traffic stop he was approached from the rear of his patrol car by in individual who fired a couple rounds through his rear window. The officer turned and fired, shooting out the tail light of his own car. Like I said, the end result determines accuraccy, not the alility of a service revolver to shoot little tiny groups.

We can argue all we want, but regardless of the groups, if you cant do anything with them, they are meaningless.

[Ole 5 hole group]

Kraigwy – Most of what you posted would impress me too – I can relate to the prickly cactus, as I crawled through some of it to get a shot once – now I look were I’m crawling while in Wyo. ‘cause once is enough for me. I would be upset at an individual who was not impressed with Hathcock’s accomplishments in life both as a Marine and a person. If you ever attend a State or Regional 2700 match you will occasionally see one or more of the competitors shoot a score of 100 at 50 yards in the slow fire event. The competitor will probably also average 2550 or higher at every match they enter. Consistency is what makes the competitor competitive for the top spot on the podium. Accuracy is the combination as you state and each is as important as the others. In benchrest we shoot both for groups and scores depending upon the type of match. If you can consistently shot less than .25 inch at 100 yards in most conditions you will probably shoot a perfect score and the winner is normally determined by X count in fairly decent conditions.
5Wire - I think the Camp Perry shooters and scores shot the B6 and B8 targets. Slow fire was at 50 yards and the timed and rapid were 25 yards. The 10 ring is just over 3 inches on both targets - that's why custom gunsmiths will guarantee groups of 2.5 to 3 inches with their load recommendations off a ransom rest. The handgun is then guaranteed to shoot a perfect score if you can - and to date no human ever has shot a 2700 but with the physical training these shooters engage in I'm confident the day will come when somebody will put it all together for a day. I’m sure the completive shooters and anyone else who takes the time to notice that the top shooters year in and year out come from the military and law-enforcement community. You will also notice they will have been shooting day in and day out for 10 to 20 years before entering that championship arena. Time and incentive to train and the use of free ammo is one hell of an advantage over the average “damn good” civilian shooter. In the civilian ranks those who are “sponsored” by whoever are normally a cut or two above “damn good”.
I've noticed over the years that individuals at shooting ranges seldom kept track of their cases or scores as most just fired away and kept only the very best target they shot. Competitive shooters paid a good price for a handgun and then modified it some to fit their “style” that was guaranteed from the gunsmith to shoot 2.5 inches at 50 yards. When the bullet from that handgun finds its way into the 9 ring or Heaven forbid the 8 ring at 50 yards – he knows it’s not the gun’s fault. If the sights were aligned perfectly and it “felt” right at the moment of recoil you expect a solid 10 maybe an X – then you lean into the shooting box and look into your spotting scope and see an 8 to 9 – go figure. As we use to say – you win the match at 50 yards but you can lose it at 25 yards. If you’re a point ahead of everyone after the 50 yard stage you should be the winner, as all targets shot at 25 yards should be clean with mucho X’s. It should be like Michael Jordan at the free throw line – money in the bank.
Anyone capable of shooting full house loads, off-hand, out of a 357 or larger caliber, without putting the revolver down after each shot for a little R&R and keeping every round within a 9 inch circle at 50 yards every time is a damn good shot in my opinion. If one can shoot that well half of the time I would consider you to be an excellent pistolero. For those who haven’t reached that level yet – it just takes time (time to strengthen your muscles, practice dry firing a hundred times a night and shooting every day or at least several times a week. It will come. If you don’t have the commitment, time or money then don’t fret about it because if you’re able to hit a 12” circle most of the time at 25 yards you’ll probably bring home a deer to two every fall and that’s good enough for most of us.

[velocette]

Gentlemen;
When I was active in Bullseye shooting, I used a GM .45 and a S&W M41, 6" barrel. Both with aimpoint sights. I developed all of my loads using a Ransome Rest and statistical analysis. ( I was a QA manager at that time)

The .45 which had been thoroughly accurized & had a Bar-Sto barrel, fitted by Irv Stone himself, (Tells you how long ago it was) would yield 1 5/8" groups @ 50 yards using Remington 185 gr jacketed SWC bullets with 3.8 gr of Bullseye, Federal LPP and Midway brass.

The M41 would give me 3/8" groups at 50 ft with either Eley Black Box or RWS target pistol ammo. The RWS was much less expensive so thats what I used.
My individual match scores with the .22 averaged, when I was at my best, at 287 out of 300. Low end Master level.
The .45 averaged 283, high end Expert.
The M41 in slow fire at 50 ft would give groups about the size of a nickel. scores in the low 90s were the norm, timed fire 100's were common, rapid fire95s & 96s were the norm. (matches are won in slow fire and lost in rapid fire)

I wish I could shoot anywhere near that well today but I recall that I practiced daily with an air pistol, Dry fire daily and live fire at least once a week and usually twice. Excercised with arm strengthening weights. Three bricks of .22s every month & I spent one whole weekend a month with a progressive reloader & casting furnace to feed the .45. This just to be competitive at the low end master level. Those Masters at Camp Perry are awesome shooters & I know how hard they work to maintain that level.

Roger

With practice practice practice, it can be done. It is not cheap nor easy to be a good pistol shot. It takes hard work, dedication and a LOT of money.