A challenge to the PG only folks....

Dave McC · October 29, 2001, 08:37 AM

There's been an ongoing debate about the merits of having a PG only, "Serious" shotgun. Having some professional experience with same, I regard them as non advantageous, and hard to hit with.

And I'm certain enough of this to risk being made a fool of in public view.

I made this challenge on an old thread but there were no takers.So here it is...

I have no "Serious" facilities since I retired, and have done little practical shotgunning as a result. I will travel a reasonable distance and shoot YOUR course of choice. I'll use one of my "Serious" 870s with full stock, others may use any PG only shotgun they wish.

Your course means any target, from steel plates to old beer cans to bowling pins to clay pigeons, any number of rounds, Score wins, time decides ties.

If you use R/R ammo, I'll do the same.

If you use full power ammo, so will I.

Birdshot? I'll use trap reloads.

Slugs? (Fiendish cackle), HECK yes!!

Loser has to buy coffee and donuts. The results,
whatever they are, get posted here so we have some
empirical evidence that people can use, instead of second hand, possibly slanted stuff.And, it's a great excuse to get together and burn some powder.

So how about it? Any takers?

FPrice · October 29, 2001, 08:56 AM

Heck Dave!

I AIN'T gonna challenge you...but I'd buy the coffee and doughnuts just to watch!

9mmMike · October 29, 2001, 09:56 AM

Oy yeah! Sign me up..................
As a spectator!
No kidding, I'd really like to be there.
Mike

krept · October 29, 2001, 10:47 AM

Dave,

I'd love to take you up on the challenge, but some problems exist...

1) I've fired a shotgun all of 3 times

2) I don't have a shotgun

3) Live in Arizona.

As a stipulation, however, I would propose that we hike through a "no firearms" area with our camping gear and longarms.

Surely you would outshoot me tenfold... I have no illusions about the superiority of full stocks to PGs, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes portability (especially when you don't want to draw unwanted attention to yourself, like in a campground with soccermoms around) is important.

The big thing I'm confused about... Did anyone ever make the claim that PG shotguns could outshoot a full stock? I can see if it was a pump vs. a semi, where the young guy with the semi thinks he can outshoot a cool hand with a pump. But the PG?

In all, the main reason why I would order a factory PG shotgun is to avoid paying the $200 tea tax to make it an AOW. Heck, with the $185 that I save by not going the full stock route, I'd get a better-than-factory full stock (hogue? choate?) and a choate top folder. More stuff for me, less for Them. Nice portable shotgun.

C.R.Sam · October 29, 2001, 11:37 PM

I wanna watch. Dave, if needed, I will gladly loan you a custom trenchcoat for concealment of full size long gun.

it's a great excuse to get together and burd some powder.

I also want to see you burd powder, I have been missing out on yet another facet of pleasurable gunning.

Sam..

Good Guy · October 30, 2001, 12:12 AM

Quote:

I also want to see you burd powder....

Sam, you are a rascal!

'Bout the only place a PG shotgun has any advantage is if your course of fire is in a small closet.

Cavè Canem · October 30, 2001, 12:19 AM

If I knew of any courses in Va Beach I would invite you down if not to just "burd" powder. I would shoot my full stock with PG and you shoot whatever you want. IM sure you'll win as I do not shoot my SG very often.

Ill look around for a place.

Dave McC · October 30, 2001, 06:57 AM

JEEZ!! You guys are rough on typos. I try to type OK but these two fingers get SOOOoo tired...

And I went back and edited burd to burn, so there...

Krept, some folks insist that they can shoot well with just a PG or more commonly, it's not a major drawback. I had the opportunity to observe HUNDREDS of people shooting that way and know differently. I also had to help develop the COF and the techniques and drills for these folks.My guess, I've shot hundreds to thousands of rounds from the hip with a PG equipped folder or PG. If I'm ever involved in an AS scenario with my shotgun, it WILL be fired from the shoulder(either one) at anything past contact distance.

In ten years of instruction, NO ONE was as effective with a PG only shotgun, including li'l ol' me. I had to qualify at 90% or better to stay an instructor. I did it, but it took work.

An equipment change that removes all or part of the tactical advantage a good hand with a shotgun holds is not a good move, IMO.

I did expect to see someone take up the gauntlet I threw down, if only just to see if I was full of it or not.

Oh well, my credibility must be good here(G)....

scouter27 · October 30, 2001, 09:36 PM

I told you before. You will do better than me, no doubt about it. But, inside my home, I wouldn't miss a BG, and I can turn the gun around in small hallways. That is the only advantage I see of the PG. The problems, however great, are out weighed by the few advantages, in my situation. I do, however, plan on putting a folder on it as soon as I find one I like.

krept, do not add a folding stock to a PG AOW shotgun. I have researched doing this, to a Super Shorty, and it will make a SBS, and then require a $200 tax, but you won't be charged that, as the ATF just come to your house with MP5's and take you to jail, if you survive

Dave McC · October 30, 2001, 09:48 PM

Scouter,my point is not that I can outshoot you, but that a good hand with a stocked shotgun can outshoot a great hand with a PG. The playing field isn't level, it's tilted so hard everyone's grabbing hold of something.

As for being able to hit at extreme close range, let's make the max distance on this contest 5 yards, starting at ONE FOOT,muzzle to target . As long as I don't have to engage a target inside a phone booth, the advantage is still mine.

As for manueverability, anyplace I can cram my 1/8 ton into can give me enough room to use a stock.

I'm sorry there's no takers, this would be a wonderful opportunity to clear this up publicly once and for all...

krept · October 31, 2001, 10:51 AM

Haha, good stuff. Dave, thanks for taking my comments in stride. No doubt you would probably smoke me with a PG only shotgun and me using a semi.

scouter27,

THANKS for the info, that was something I didn't think would apply... jeez, the laws with AOWs are scary sometimes. Having a short barreled shotgun that would allow a PG only to be installed on it is not a good thing. Couple ATF registration hassle and the tax, I think I'm just going to stick with the full sized barrels.

Too much hassle for 4" (which I think is the intention...)

Shin-Tao · October 31, 2001, 11:18 AM

I accept your challenge, Sir!

I will out-perform you while using a PG only 12 gauge and the whole world will wittness it!

First I have to have my right arm replaced with a titanium and steel hydraulic cybernetic limb.

C.R.Sam · October 31, 2001, 11:36 AM

Two fingers ? Unfair use of hicap digit carriers.

Clead · October 31, 2001, 08:54 PM

One of the few positive parts of Canadian gun law is that as long as minimum OAL of 26" is maintained, we can buy police pumps with 14" tubes. It does specify that it has to be a manual operated (pump/lever/bolt/single)gun and a factory-installed original barrel, so no sawed-offs, but it's nice that I can get the same 14" Mossy 590A1 the boys in blue are using, with no hassle. One other good/bad thing is that ARs are in the same class as handguns here, so the barrel can be a short as you can handle the muzzle blast from!
Anyone have any stories of what the muzzle blast is like from the AOW 12g guns? I'm wondering if I should expect a pumpkin fireball from those 14" Mossy's.
Clead.

Dave McC · November 1, 2001, 06:23 AM

You're on, Shin!! Name the time and planet(G)...

The fireball from a 14" pump gun and duty style buck in low light is truly impressive. While the 18" bbled jobs have fairtomiddlin' fireballs, the ones from the shorties I've seen run close to basketball sized. Hate to think what the 12" super shorties do!

psssniper · November 1, 2001, 11:58 PM

i'm not sure what fast is, but i have done ten bowling pins in a 90 degree spread anywhere from 10 to 30 feet away in 7.2 seconds
thats with a mossberg 590 I am just starting to practice with my benelli M1 and also an M3. will be trying reg and PG stocks. i'll update y'all after the next practice. so far the 590 pump with straight stock seems best. but i'd still take the challenge with the PG benelli's just for fun!!
paul

October 29, 2001, 08:37 AM	#1
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	A challenge to the PG only folks.... There's been an ongoing debate about the merits of having a PG only, "Serious" shotgun. Having some professional experience with same, I regard them as non advantageous, and hard to hit with. And I'm certain enough of this to risk being made a fool of in public view. I made this challenge on an old thread but there were no takers.So here it is... I have no "Serious" facilities since I retired, and have done little practical shotgunning as a result. I will travel a reasonable distance and shoot YOUR course of choice. I'll use one of my "Serious" 870s with full stock, others may use any PG only shotgun they wish. Your course means any target, from steel plates to old beer cans to bowling pins to clay pigeons, any number of rounds, Score wins, time decides ties. If you use R/R ammo, I'll do the same. If you use full power ammo, so will I. Birdshot? I'll use trap reloads. Slugs? (Fiendish cackle), HECK yes!! Loser has to buy coffee and donuts. The results, whatever they are, get posted here so we have some empirical evidence that people can use, instead of second hand, possibly slanted stuff.And, it's a great excuse to get together and burn some powder. So how about it? Any takers? Last edited by Dave McC; October 30, 2001 at 06:42 AM.

October 29, 2001, 08:56 AM	#2
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	Heck Dave! I AIN'T gonna challenge you...but I'd buy the coffee and doughnuts just to watch! __________________ Frosty Price "No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai

October 29, 2001, 09:56 AM	#3
9mmMike Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2000 Location: SE PA Posts: 1,049	Oy yeah! Sign me up.................. As a spectator! No kidding, I'd really like to be there. Mike __________________ "Freedom is not free" Visit TheRallyPoint.org TheRallyPoint at LRGC- Saturday August 26th IF YOU LIVE IN PA AND DID NOT VOTE, YOU DESERVE TO LOSE YOUR GUNS!

October 30, 2001, 09:36 PM	#9
scouter27 Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2001 Location: pennsylvania Posts: 420	I told you before. You will do better than me, no doubt about it. But, inside my home, I wouldn't miss a BG, and I can turn the gun around in small hallways. That is the only advantage I see of the PG. The problems, however great, are out weighed by the few advantages, in my situation. I do, however, plan on putting a folder on it as soon as I find one I like. krept, do not add a folding stock to a PG AOW shotgun. I have researched doing this, to a Super Shorty, and it will make a SBS, and then require a $200 tax, but you won't be charged that, as the ATF just come to your house with MP5's and take you to jail, if you survive __________________ Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons. S/F Jesse

October 31, 2001, 11:18 AM	#12
Shin-Tao Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2000 Posts: 1,528	I accept your challenge, Sir! I will out-perform you while using a PG only 12 gauge and the whole world will wittness it! First I have to have my right arm replaced with a titanium and steel hydraulic cybernetic limb. __________________ SPQR

October 29, 2001, 10:47 AM	#4
krept Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,363	Dave, I'd love to take you up on the challenge, but some problems exist... 1) I've fired a shotgun all of 3 times 2) I don't have a shotgun 3) Live in Arizona. As a stipulation, however, I would propose that we hike through a "no firearms" area with our camping gear and longarms. Surely you would outshoot me tenfold... I have no illusions about the superiority of full stocks to PGs, but the fact of the matter is, sometimes portability (especially when you don't want to draw unwanted attention to yourself, like in a campground with soccermoms around) is important. The big thing I'm confused about... Did anyone ever make the claim that PG shotguns could outshoot a full stock? I can see if it was a pump vs. a semi, where the young guy with the semi thinks he can outshoot a cool hand with a pump. But the PG? In all, the main reason why I would order a factory PG shotgun is to avoid paying the $200 tea tax to make it an AOW. Heck, with the $185 that I save by not going the full stock route, I'd get a better-than-factory full stock (hogue? choate?) and a choate top folder. More stuff for me, less for Them. Nice portable shotgun.

October 29, 2001, 11:37 PM	#5
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	I wanna watch. Dave, if needed, I will gladly loan you a custom trenchcoat for concealment of full size long gun. it's a great excuse to get together and burd some powder. I also want to see you burd powder, I have been missing out on yet another facet of pleasurable gunning. Sam..

October 30, 2001, 12:19 AM	#7
Cavè Canem Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2001 Location: NW VA Posts: 228	If I knew of any courses in Va Beach I would invite you down if not to just "burd" powder. I would shoot my full stock with PG and you shoot whatever you want. IM sure you'll win as I do not shoot my SG very often. Ill look around for a place.

October 30, 2001, 06:57 AM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	JEEZ!! You guys are rough on typos. I try to type OK but these two fingers get SOOOoo tired... And I went back and edited burd to burn, so there... Krept, some folks insist that they can shoot well with just a PG or more commonly, it's not a major drawback. I had the opportunity to observe HUNDREDS of people shooting that way and know differently. I also had to help develop the COF and the techniques and drills for these folks.My guess, I've shot hundreds to thousands of rounds from the hip with a PG equipped folder or PG. If I'm ever involved in an AS scenario with my shotgun, it WILL be fired from the shoulder(either one) at anything past contact distance. In ten years of instruction, NO ONE was as effective with a PG only shotgun, including li'l ol' me. I had to qualify at 90% or better to stay an instructor. I did it, but it took work. An equipment change that removes all or part of the tactical advantage a good hand with a shotgun holds is not a good move, IMO. I did expect to see someone take up the gauntlet I threw down, if only just to see if I was full of it or not. Oh well, my credibility must be good here(G)....

October 30, 2001, 09:48 PM	#10
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Scouter,my point is not that I can outshoot you, but that a good hand with a stocked shotgun can outshoot a great hand with a PG. The playing field isn't level, it's tilted so hard everyone's grabbing hold of something. As for being able to hit at extreme close range, let's make the max distance on this contest 5 yards, starting at ONE FOOT,muzzle to target . As long as I don't have to engage a target inside a phone booth, the advantage is still mine. As for manueverability, anyplace I can cram my 1/8 ton into can give me enough room to use a stock. I'm sorry there's no takers, this would be a wonderful opportunity to clear this up publicly once and for all...

October 31, 2001, 10:51 AM	#11
krept Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2000 Location: AZ Posts: 1,363	Haha, good stuff. Dave, thanks for taking my comments in stride. No doubt you would probably smoke me with a PG only shotgun and me using a semi. scouter27, THANKS for the info, that was something I didn't think would apply... jeez, the laws with AOWs are scary sometimes. Having a short barreled shotgun that would allow a PG only to be installed on it is not a good thing. Couple ATF registration hassle and the tax, I think I'm just going to stick with the full sized barrels. Too much hassle for 4" (which I think is the intention...)

October 31, 2001, 11:36 AM	#13
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,858	Two fingers ? Unfair use of hicap digit carriers.

October 31, 2001, 08:54 PM	#14
Clead Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2000 Location: British Columbia, Canada Posts: 110	One of the few positive parts of Canadian gun law is that as long as minimum OAL of 26" is maintained, we can buy police pumps with 14" tubes. It does specify that it has to be a manual operated (pump/lever/bolt/single)gun and a factory-installed original barrel, so no sawed-offs, but it's nice that I can get the same 14" Mossy 590A1 the boys in blue are using, with no hassle. One other good/bad thing is that ARs are in the same class as handguns here, so the barrel can be a short as you can handle the muzzle blast from! Anyone have any stories of what the muzzle blast is like from the AOW 12g guns? I'm wondering if I should expect a pumpkin fireball from those 14" Mossy's. Clead. __________________ "Molon Labe" & "Molon Latte" -I'd rather die than live unarmed and uncaffienated

November 1, 2001, 06:23 AM	#15
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	You're on, Shin!! Name the time and planet(G)... The fireball from a 14" pump gun and duty style buck in low light is truly impressive. While the 18" bbled jobs have fairtomiddlin' fireballs, the ones from the shorties I've seen run close to basketball sized. Hate to think what the 12" super shorties do!

November 1, 2001, 11:58 PM	#16
psssniper Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2001 Posts: 186	i'm not sure what fast is, but i have done ten bowling pins in a 90 degree spread anywhere from 10 to 30 feet away in 7.2 seconds thats with a mossberg 590 I am just starting to practice with my benelli M1 and also an M3. will be trying reg and PG stocks. i'll update y'all after the next practice. so far the 590 pump with straight stock seems best. but i'd still take the challenge with the PG benelli's just for fun!! paul

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