"Limp Wristing" as an acceptable failure mode.

[shortwave]

This thread is like the soap opera's.

You can not tune in for days on end and when you do tune back in, it's like you never left.

[Leejack]

This thread is like the soap opera's.

You can not tune in for days on end and when you do tune back in, it's like you never left.

LOL!

[madmag]

Originally Posted by shortwave

You can not tune in for days on end and when you do tune back in, it's like you never left.

Agree. We are just going in circles. I was right from the very first and that has not seemed to change.

[chadio]

Limp-wristing is a real problem. It certainly can be exacerbated by a less than ideally functioning firearm. A gun is a tool. Would you take a chain saw and hold it with one hand, and then when it kicked back and cut you, blame the chain saw or poor handling techniques? What about a circular saw or router? They all require correct handling and control. Are you going to blame the tool or learn how to use it properly? It's a poor craftsman that blames his tools.

I think these are excellent points. "They all require correct handling and control"

However, I'd invite people to ask themselves the question:

In utilizing power tools, what are the chances that, in the course of their use, you can become injured (affecting your ability to hold it properly) and still rely on that power tool to save your life?

Now, re read that sentence and substitute handgun for the word power tool. It's not the same, is it? We don't use power tools to defend ourselves.

[Dondor]

The funny thing about this whole "limp wristing" discussion...

I have yet to make ANY of my revolvers fail. I can make ALL of my semis fail.

[AK103K]

You just havent shot them enough yet.

Ill take an auto malfunction over a revolver malfunction, any day.

[labhound]

I think I limp wristed my mouse and jumped down 3 posts!

[shortwave]

Whatever you do, don't limpwrist your mouse.

[JohnKSa]

There is no such thing as an acceptable failure mode unless the problem can be found AND conclusively eliminated. If a shooter has ongoing problems with limp-wristing a particular gun, then that gun isn't a good choice for self-defense for him/her. Knowing what causes the problem is absolutely pointless if the problem can't be remedied.

That's one reason I'm hesitant to recommend very small polymer frame pistols in relatively large calibers for self-defense. In my experience, and based on reports from other shooters, after a point, shrinking/lightening a gun increases the likelihood of grip-related failures to an unacceptable level. To add to the problem, most folks won't shoot a small, light gun in a potent caliber enough to prove its reliability. And worst of all, getting a proper grip on a small gun while under a lot of stress--possibly while grappling or injured is not easy. That increases the chances of grip-related malfunctions at the worst possible time.

[Edward429451]

I can make ALL of my semis fail.

Impressive. But can you make them run flawless?

[johnbt]

I saw a shooter limp wrist one round with my Rohrbaugh 9 yesterday. He didn't have any problems with the first two mags, but on the third mag he switched to his left hand and halfway through it happened, the slide crushed the empty.

Did I mention he was 11.

Five of us shot the R9, including two other youngsters, and nobody else had a problem.

John

[madmag]

Originally Posted by johnbt

Five of us shot the R9, including two other youngsters, and nobody else had a problem.

Search for the underlying problem. It should run for at least a 7 year old. Then when it's resolved you will have a dependable pistol.

[johnbt]

Ha. The father of one of them shot it and he'd never heard of an R9. He's ex-military, a competitive shooter and goes out partying with SEAL teams and stuff. He couldn't believe how accurate it was.

Of course the gun barely came up off the target when he shot it. Good recoil management techique I'd say.

[madmag]

All these pages and the solution is simple, and not all that expensive.

[AK103K]

To bad it doesnt address the problem.

[Edward429451]

LOL Madmag! You're right!

That the boy was 11 is a coincidence I think, and has no real bearing on the issue.

[Tactical Jackalope]

Oh this is cool and all. Easy fix though. Don't limp wrist..

[dgludwig]

Quote:
What if your grip slips just a tiny bit during that SD battle? That's no excuse for a gun to be that sensitive and malfunction over such a tiny little change in grip. If the gun is that sensitive, that isn't acceptable for a real self-defense situation.

I would argue that it isn't acceptable to be using a handgun in a "defensive" situation without the training and experience to operate it effectively

Is it then unacceptable to have your grip compromised by the presence of blood, sweat or mud while "using a handgun in a 'defensive' situation" despite having "the training and experience to operate it effectively"? Let's be real here: no one can be sure of being able to draw a pistol unimpeded and to then acquire a locked grip with a two-handed hold with dry hands in every or any "defensive" situation, no matter how advanced your level of tactical expertise might be. That's just not how it works in real life.

I'm in agreement with those who argue that any pistol so sensitve as to the vagaries of how it might be gripped before it can be relied on to function properly is not a pistol I want to trust my life with.

[Crow Hunter]

Is it then unacceptable to have your grip compromised by the presence of blood, sweat or mud while "using a handgun in a 'defensive' situation" despite having "the training and experience to operate it effectively"? Let's be real here: no one can be sure of being able to draw a pistol unimpeded and to then acquire a locked grip with a two-handed hold with dry hands in every or any "defensive" situation, no matter how advanced your level of tactical expertise might be. That's just not how it works in real life.

A person who has the training and experience necessary to operate their weapon in a defensive situation will KNOW whether their weapon has a problem with this and won't be worried about "limp wristing". It will show up as a problem during their training and they will find a weapon that will work for them.

I personally have done many many thousands of presentations and shots at targets from weak hand, strong hand, prone, supine even with a wet gun while laying in a muddy puddle of water in the rain. I haven't had a "limp wrist" malfunction and this is with a weapon "known" for limp wristing, my wife was doing the same.

However, at one training class, I did see an older lady using an XD that had countless malfunctions and she switched weapons with her husband who was also using a XD and the problem persisted. I only saw this out of the corner of my eye, but the only thing I could come up with was technique related. That lady would probably be better off with a different weapon/action type and because she was training and gaining experience she was determining what she needed to use.

No one should be carrying a weapon of ANY type for defensive purposes that doesn't have the training and experience with it to use it effectively.

Would you advise someone to walk into a store, buy Brand X gun, load it, stick it in their pocket and call it good without even function testing it?

[chadio]

I'm definitely with dgludwig on this one

[dgludwig]

A person who has the training and experience necessary to operate their weapon in a defensive situation will KNOW whether their weapon has a problem with this and won't be worried about "limp wristing". It will show up as a problem during their training and they will find a weapon that will work for them.

No one is disagreeing with you on the above quote which is why I made the following quote:

I'm in agreement with those who argue that any pistol so sensitve as to the vagaries of how it might be gripped before it can be relied on to function properly is not a pistol I want to trust my life with.

As you must know, this discussion has revolved around the merits of the theme posed by the op (title of thread:"Limpwristing as an Acceptable Failure Mode"). My only point was that pistols that have a predisposition to be affected adversely by an imperfect grip should not be relied on for self-defense.

Would you advise someone to walk into a store, buy Brand X gun, load it, stick it in their pocket and call it good without even function testing it?

Did you see something in my post that would lead you to believe that I would advocate something as inane as this? Please don't try to construct a straw man just so you can make a point. I retired after thirty years in le. I fully understand the importance of an ongoing, good training regimen for those who choose to arm themselves in self-defense. But I am of the opinion that the supposed phenomena of "limp-wristing" is most of the time a cover for a weapon-related deficiency. And I think that's what this thread has mostly been about.

[Crow Hunter]

I'm in agreement with those who argue that any pistol so sensitve as to the vagaries of how it might be gripped before it can be relied on to function properly is not a pistol I want to trust my life with.

This is my point. Any weapon out there is sensitive to technique. If you hold it incorrectly and don't operate it correctly, it WILL malfunction.

Did you see something in my post that would lead you to believe that I would advocate something as inane as this? Please don't try to construct a straw man just so you can make a point

I wasn't attempting to create a straw man. The way I read your statement quoted above was that no matter how well trained you were or experienced you are that you wouldn't pick a weapon that could malfunction if it wasn't gripped right. Since ANY weapon will malfunction if it is not operated correctly, you have to test it and train with it to find out. The only way I could see that you would argue with that is by stating that if someone just purchased Brand X that couldn't malfunction and a person would be good to go.

My point was if you pick a pistol, you MUST train with it and see if it will cause a problem with the way you use it.

Even a semiautomatic pistol that is magically completely immune to "limp wrist" malfunctions will still have a problem if a person shoots it with a thumb over revolver grip that interrupts the slide travel. (I have seen someone do this before, and it had too be really painful)

But I am of the opinion that the supposed phenomena of "limp-wristing" is most of the time a cover for a weapon-related deficiency.

This is where your opinion and my experience diverge. I have seen "limp-wristing" failures, and they have always been exclusively technique related. Always with shooters with little to no experience and across multiple platforms.

[couldbeanyone]

AS far as I am concerned, any pistol that can be caused to malfunction by limp wristing is not suitable for self defense. I don't know about you, but I don't have a crystal ball that tells me what position or condition I will be in when I might have to use my handgun.

[chadio]

Any weapon out there is sensitive to technique.....

I disagree, most of them are designed to go bang if you follow the most elementary fundamentals of putting a round in the chamber and pulling a trigger-like device. I absolutely do not wish to own or operate any weapon that is so sensitive as stated above.

..... If you hold it incorrectly and don't operate it correctly, it WILL malfunction.

I'll give you the operation part, but hold... wrong. You must be naive, to the fact that some weapons / firearms absolutely work with reliable results without holding them in just a certain way. If a round is chambered and you pull the trigger, it is GOING to fire and chamber another. None of this 'magical hold me a certain way' bullspit.

Go out on a limb, run a handgun or rifle that is reliable and see for yourself. By the nature of your comments, you have yet to run a real gun that really runs all the time... they do exist.

[dgludwig]

This is where your opinion and my experience diverge. I have seen "limp-wristing" failures, and they have always been exclusively technique related. Always with shooters with little to no experience and across multiple platforms.

And this is where your opinion and my experience diverge. I have seen many instances where the so-called limpwristing phenomenon was blamed for jams when the pistol was actually at fault (actually, you can add to the list other popular excuses for malfunctioning pistols, including insufficient "break-in", white box ammo and dirty mags). My experience also tells me that there are certain pistols brands and certain pistol configurations that are way more likely to be adversely affected by the way they are gripped than are some others-irrespective of the body build, gender or level of experience of the shooter. And those are the pistols (I won't name companies because that will only lead to brand bashing and Kool-Aid fests and my experience with these pistols does not necessarily translate into documented proof of anything. But I will say that I view with suspicion any small, light-weight handgun that is composed primarily of polymer and is chambered in calibers above 9mm) I stay clear of and recommend to others to do the same when serious social situations are anticipated.