For 223, what is 'armor piercing'?

cchardwick · January 12, 2009, 12:07 AM

Is a full metal jacket considered armor piercing? Or does the bullet have to have some other characteristic, perhaps steel in the bullet? Just wondering if I could buy bullets that are considered armor piercing. I'd like to run some tests on materials to come up with a new light weight bullet stopping material using some really aggressive bullets.

butta9999 · January 12, 2009, 03:49 AM

I'm pretty sure armor piercing bullets have some sort of hardened steel or depleted uranium in the tip. The full metal jacket is just a copper jacket coating lead.. While it is harder than HP and SP i dont think its considered armor piercing..

I could be wrong

Double Naught Spy · January 12, 2009, 04:16 AM

FMJ is NOT considered AP ammo either legally or physically. It will pass through soft body "armor" but that is not the armor that is referred to in definitions. In fact, it is hard for many rifle calibers NOT to pass through soft body armor even with hollowpoint or softpoint ammo.

There may be AP .223 ammo, but I don't know of any that is classified as such. The SS109 ammo is said to have a "penetrator" in it which is nothing but a little bitty steel bar about the diameter of a short lenth of metal coat hanger.

Shoney · January 12, 2009, 06:11 AM

Armor piercing bullets have a sharply pointed hardened steel projectile wrapped in a regular copper jacket. This permits the bullet to be fired in rifled barrels and not harm the lands.

Upon striking the target, the copper jacket peals away and the steel projectile keeps on going, provided the angle of incidence doesn't cause it to ricochet.

CowTowner · January 12, 2009, 07:52 AM

Here's a little more on AP Ammo:

http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/ammunition.htm

cookhj · January 12, 2009, 09:07 AM

whatever sarah brady says because we all know she's the most knowledgable firearms expert....EVAR.

Double Naught Spy · January 12, 2009, 11:32 AM

The "AP" ammo CowTowner notes from Sniper's Paradise is interesting. If you notice the results of the plate hits, there is a tiny hole in most where the tiny little rod went through but nothing else. It is composed of a copper jacket over a predominately lead core with a small steel rod inside. It is not a full or mostly steel core.

They are also testing this again 300 HB steel. This is fairly mild compared to what is used by steel target manufacturers such as MGM who use 500 HB (or rather, 500 Brinnell) http://www.mgmtargets.com/products/p...age.php?cat=15

realsoldier · November 30, 2009, 11:39 PM

the army designation for the 5.56 armor piercing round is "M995"

bamaranger · December 1, 2009, 03:11 AM

Was at a LE range the other day and when we were done, I ambled over to the rifle side and there were some guys accuracy testing M995 armor piercing ammo in M16 rifles (not carbines) They were an armament contractor who had been selected to try and improve accuracy w/ that ammo, and were experimenting w/ leade, twist, rifling depth etc to improve same. they had about two dozen rifles they had rebarrled and were shooting for group.

Using a machine rest mounted on a trailer, one guy spotting, another posting targets, third mounting the rifles and running the button .

Accuracy at 100 yds was about 3MOA on the avg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They said that was typical, and why the search was on for improvement.
The issue is that the steel penetrator in the GI spec ammo cannot easily be centered during formation/production, ,and the bullet is thus out of balance as it rotates in flight to the target.

Nice guys and great of them to let me hang.

res45 · December 1, 2009, 05:35 AM

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...56mm_ammo.html

wncchester · December 1, 2009, 08:44 AM

The term "armor piercing" is clear in it's primary deffination for military use. But, the word is a poorly understood as "sniper" or "assault weapon" or "cop killer" or even "bullet" due to the ignorant (aka, "lame stream media") mouthing words they know not.

Strickly speaking about small arms ammunition it refers to bullets encasing hardened steel cores within a copper/lead sabot that looks no different from any other military type bullet. Some have added "AP" to any full patch bullet, including handgun ammo, regardless of being technically incorrect.

You don't state what you will be working with but I can't imagine any practicle body armor that will stop an actual A.P. round. And, if you are working on something other than that, you iwll need REAL AP stuff to test with, not common soft point or even FMJ bullets, OR have your people better define what they are striving to stop. IMHO.

Fact is, any high velocity bullet - m.v. in excess of perhaps 2,700 fps - has the potential to pierce types of body armor, even a (relitively slow) soft point hunting bullet. So, someone needs to define what they mean when they say "armor", and how thick they expect to protect from.

Years ago, I consistantly punched holes thrught scrap pieces of low carbon steel plate from 3/8" to 1/2" thick with .223, .22-250, .243, .270, .308, .30-06 and .458 Win. at 25 yards when shooting various common soft point/HP bullets. And, done right, a case hardened target arrow point can be driven through 1/8" mild steel, but the shaft usually shatters!

January 12, 2009, 12:07 AM	#1
cchardwick Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 574	For 223, what is 'armor piercing'? Is a full metal jacket considered armor piercing? Or does the bullet have to have some other characteristic, perhaps steel in the bullet? Just wondering if I could buy bullets that are considered armor piercing. I'd like to run some tests on materials to come up with a new light weight bullet stopping material using some really aggressive bullets.

January 12, 2009, 03:49 AM	#2
butta9999 Senior Member Join Date: June 29, 2008 Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 692	I'm pretty sure armor piercing bullets have some sort of hardened steel or depleted uranium in the tip. The full metal jacket is just a copper jacket coating lead.. While it is harder than HP and SP i dont think its considered armor piercing.. I could be wrong __________________ Knowledge is Power!

January 12, 2009, 04:16 AM	#3
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,716	FMJ is NOT considered AP ammo either legally or physically. It will pass through soft body "armor" but that is not the armor that is referred to in definitions. In fact, it is hard for many rifle calibers NOT to pass through soft body armor even with hollowpoint or softpoint ammo. There may be AP .223 ammo, but I don't know of any that is classified as such. The SS109 ammo is said to have a "penetrator" in it which is nothing but a little bitty steel bar about the diameter of a short lenth of metal coat hanger. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

January 12, 2009, 06:11 AM	#4
Shoney Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2002 Location: Transplanted from Montana Posts: 2,311	Armor piercing bullets have a sharply pointed hardened steel projectile wrapped in a regular copper jacket. This permits the bullet to be fired in rifled barrels and not harm the lands. Upon striking the target, the copper jacket peals away and the steel projectile keeps on going, provided the angle of incidence doesn't cause it to ricochet. __________________ I pledge allegiance to the Flag - - -, and to the Republic for which it stands….Our Forefathers were brilliant for giving us a Republic, not a democracy! Do you know the difference??? and WHY?http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissue...les.asp?id=111

January 12, 2009, 07:52 AM	#5
CowTowner Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: Cowtown of course! Posts: 1,747	More Info on AP Ammo Here's a little more on AP Ammo: http://www.snipersparadise.com/equipment/ammunition.htm __________________ NRA Chief Range Safety Officer, Home Firearms Safety, Pistol and Rifle Instructor *“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life......”* President John F. Kennedy

January 12, 2009, 09:07 AM	#6
cookhj Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2001 Posts: 330	whatever sarah brady says because we all know she's the most knowledgable firearms expert....EVAR. __________________ You may be whatever you resolve to be. - Gen. TJ "Stonewall" Jackson

January 12, 2009, 11:32 AM	#7
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,716	The "AP" ammo CowTowner notes from Sniper's Paradise is interesting. If you notice the results of the plate hits, there is a tiny hole in most where the tiny little rod went through but nothing else. It is composed of a copper jacket over a predominately lead core with a small steel rod inside. It is not a full or mostly steel core. They are also testing this again 300 HB steel. This is fairly mild compared to what is used by steel target manufacturers such as MGM who use 500 HB (or rather, 500 Brinnell) http://www.mgmtargets.com/products/p...age.php?cat=15 __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

November 30, 2009, 11:39 PM	#8
realsoldier Junior Member Join Date: November 30, 2009 Location: washington state Posts: 3	223 ap the army designation for the 5.56 armor piercing round is "M995"

December 1, 2009, 03:11 AM	#9
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,295	get this Was at a LE range the other day and when we were done, I ambled over to the rifle side and there were some guys accuracy testing M995 armor piercing ammo in M16 rifles (not carbines) They were an armament contractor who had been selected to try and improve accuracy w/ that ammo, and were experimenting w/ leade, twist, rifling depth etc to improve same. they had about two dozen rifles they had rebarrled and were shooting for group. Using a machine rest mounted on a trailer, one guy spotting, another posting targets, third mounting the rifles and running the button . Accuracy at 100 yds was about 3MOA on the avg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They said that was typical, and why the search was on for improvement. The issue is that the steel penetrator in the GI spec ammo cannot easily be centered during formation/production, ,and the bullet is thus out of balance as it rotates in flight to the target. Nice guys and great of them to let me hang.

December 1, 2009, 05:35 AM	#10
res45 Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2007 Location: NC Posts: 753	http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/i...56mm_ammo.html __________________ The Reloaders Network discord Channel https://discord.gg/Nafuzht

December 1, 2009, 08:44 AM	#11
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	The term "armor piercing" is clear in it's primary deffination for military use. But, the word is a poorly understood as "sniper" or "assault weapon" or "cop killer" or even "bullet" due to the ignorant (aka, "lame stream media") mouthing words they know not. Strickly speaking about small arms ammunition it refers to bullets encasing hardened steel cores within a copper/lead sabot that looks no different from any other military type bullet. Some have added "AP" to any full patch bullet, including handgun ammo, regardless of being technically incorrect. You don't state what you will be working with but I can't imagine any practicle body armor that will stop an actual A.P. round. And, if you are working on something other than that, you iwll need REAL AP stuff to test with, not common soft point or even FMJ bullets, OR have your people better define what they are striving to stop. IMHO. Fact is, any high velocity bullet - m.v. in excess of perhaps 2,700 fps - has the potential to pierce types of body armor, even a (relitively slow) soft point hunting bullet. So, someone needs to define what they mean when they say "armor", and how thick they expect to protect from. Years ago, I consistantly punched holes thrught scrap pieces of low carbon steel plate from 3/8" to 1/2" thick with .223, .22-250, .243, .270, .308, .30-06 and .458 Win. at 25 yards when shooting various common soft point/HP bullets. And, done right, a case hardened target arrow point can be driven through 1/8" mild steel, but the shaft usually shatters!

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