November 9, 2009, 12:22 AM | #501 |
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It is a shotgun caliber that is exempt from DD in the law-- Title 18 GCA, Section 921 -- It doesn't matter what crazy name you give it, like magnum, super express. 12Ga From Hell, super duper magnum, shotgun from purgatory, etc, as long as it shoots straight sided 12ga shotgun cases.
It doesn't matter what cases are made of or their length, as long as it fires shorter ones if you have a longer chamber. Like 3" in 3.5" chambers. like 2.75" in 3" chambers, like 3" in 3.85" chambers, etc. 12ga chamber lengths range from 1.5" to about 4 inches. It doesn't matter the barrel length, smooth, rifled, polygonal barrel, paradox bore. Now you can't take a 40mm cannon case and neck it to 12ga and have an exempt 12ga, as chamber wouldn't fire other straight sided 12ga cases.But such a case can get a sporting use exemption by asking ATF for one like many big bore rifle cases that have done that.And that is part of the same law.Ed
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November 12, 2009, 06:00 PM | #502 |
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Well, RE17 has been used in a load that killed a buck.
It was turbo1889 on castboollits forum. Used a 20ga with load of 100gr of RE17(full load), a 1 oz full bore slug and killed the buck at over 150 yards. My gun 12GA FH above that I want pass on to someone, will also fire shorter cases too. Ed
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November 12, 2009, 06:02 PM | #503 |
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I'm really going to have to reserve my opinion here. It's nice to see someone with some skill at least in the production aspect.
Good luck. |
November 12, 2009, 09:00 PM | #504 |
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What are folks reserved about?
We show the law numbers.. That law is what allows shotgun makers to make 12 gauges with any length chamber that will sell, and rifled or smooth barrels, slugs, saboted slugs, slower than molasses or hopped up fast. Any barrel length over 18", ported or muzzle brakes. And barrels shorter you pay a tax, if auto fire pay a tax, etc. It is not me that has any production skills, it is Savage, NEF, Rossi, TC, Mossberg, Win, Rem,etc, and the barrel and parts makers with the skills. We just put stuff together which is also legal to do. Here it is not illegal to change a barrel or a stock or a scope, etc, for a guy working on his own stuff, like it is in some other countries,where you have to get a permit and bribe the gov(called fees) to even put a different finish on your stock or add a recoil pad...Sigh.. Ed
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November 12, 2009, 10:02 PM | #505 |
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Any time I see the envelope pushed I wait for someone to push back - and rarely do I have to wait long (unfortunately). I also have to wonder if the law recognizes 10, 8 or even 4 gauge (2 old commercial hunting rounds, now obsolete). If so... could you do the same thing with them?
Not a recommendation - just a thought. At some point you've got a cannon on your hands. |
November 12, 2009, 10:38 PM | #506 |
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The law recognizes any shotgun caliber as exempt.
We have folks building 4bore doubles for 50 grand each, we have folks building 2bores. NEF sells thousands of 10ga, Parker has 8ga doubles. Some mfg 8ga have 3.3" chambers, some have 4.3" chambers. I have an 8ga FH as I call it. I'm doing a 4ga falling block. We have companies making brass cases for various bores so that you can use full length of the chamber for more power. Or you lengthen chambers with manufacturers reamers. We have companies that have lengthened various shotgun gauges and developed loads and cases for them. And all without being restricted as DDs. All these companies doing these things wouldn't do it, if illegal. The folks administering the law goes by what various gauges were around before the law was enacted that exempted them. Please get a COTW book and look at the shotgun gauge listings and listings have been in all editions from way back before the law and DD term was even thought of. Now for hunting various game there may be restriction on gauge size in the US and states, but that has nothing to do with ownership, blowing up water jugs, making holes in targets that are easy to see at 100yds, breaking collar bones, inducing whiplash, etc. You know 600 NE,577Ne,700NE,585Nyati 70-150WIN are all exempt from DD. Many others also that have been granted sporting use exemption. I have cases of mine exempt. SSK has some, the 550 guys got 4, AHR has 3, and dozens of other calibers. When you get exemption it is stated that it is for sporting firearms, in the letter, not considered over 50 weapon which makes it a DD if used as autofire,of military design weapon, etc.. Shotgun calibers and those given exemptions are sporting in sporting guns, all others are weapons. Designating military or police use. Ed
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November 21, 2009, 03:40 AM | #507 |
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Matthew in Oregon got the 12GA FH Savage.
He is now in the recoil club. Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones. Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5" plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed
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November 25, 2009, 12:46 AM | #508 |
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Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through 3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic base and it went through straight without tumbling. This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it would be in flight, before hitting target. Ed
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December 1, 2009, 02:28 AM | #509 |
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4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting real small parts without CNC for bushed firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes time. We will have swaged lead slugs in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done, a hundred of them at least. Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed
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December 8, 2009, 05:09 AM | #510 |
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Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a cartridge collector and gun nut friend. Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with heat gun from plastic cases, He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of time not having to make rim pieces. We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed
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December 15, 2009, 10:42 PM | #511 |
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Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal. I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on. The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504" diameter, and works ok. New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases, and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first. Only slight case dimension change is the base .012" smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles, falling blocks.etc. And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH, the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger. Will have pics and info soon. Ed
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December 21, 2009, 12:12 AM | #512 |
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Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it. In fact the trough is big enough and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case. I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed
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December 26, 2009, 11:56 PM | #513 |
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Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5" wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block. The sides are .187" thick next to breach block. This compares to about .165" say for a Browning B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with 12ga size rim if some work was done on the top of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of 1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good strength. Ed
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January 4, 2010, 10:56 PM | #514 |
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Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for 20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also. Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed
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January 7, 2010, 02:03 AM | #515 |
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Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass 12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil. BPI and others sell them for less than a buck each. Being so short they aren't in the 12ga FH category of generating power. But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck base, and set up a squeeze collet to crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight. And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best. Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no block to the primer gases coming out through the Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little. These will handle 20,000 psi loads.Ed
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January 7, 2010, 06:05 PM | #516 |
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WOW how accurate can you shoot it??????????
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January 8, 2010, 01:15 AM | #517 |
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There is guy who has killed a deer with our
slow powder loads at 230 yds with 20 ga. My 585 does 1.5" group at 50 yds, peep sights 12ga 3.5" in NEf can do 2.5" at 50 yds, peep sights.Ed
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January 10, 2010, 07:08 AM | #518 |
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BIG MAC
Actually a shotgun is smooth bore, but it could be considered a sporting gun, like the .510 gibbs or the .700 nitro express or the .950 JDJ etc.
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January 13, 2010, 01:18 AM | #519 |
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Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel, that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use 3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed
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January 20, 2010, 12:10 AM | #520 |
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Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size. It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging, to make a smooth transition to the right size. It does it 4 times faster than previous process. My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in. It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed. The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over contact me... Ed
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January 20, 2010, 08:29 AM | #521 |
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this is ridiculous, pure madness and insanity, and I LOVE IT!!!
I haven't read this whole thread, so for a quick rundown, how much will a rifle set up to accept this cost? |
January 22, 2010, 11:27 PM | #522 |
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NEF 12ga Ultra $275. It already has aheavy barrel.
Deepen chamber $50. 3.5" plastic cases new with primers 20 cents ea . Later on get 3.5" RMC brass 10 bucks each. Sabot or slug of your choice. Powder, roll crimper, reload stuff. Add a thick 35 buck pad to gun add weight in the butt. You want bolt action you get a Savage for twice as much and add a $300 heavy barrel, weight, thick pad. For a pump gun the new thick barreled Remington with 25.5" thick barrel, about 550 bucks.Redo it for 3.5" plastic cases. Weight, thick pad. A switch barrel auto we are testing 3.5" 12ga smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads. About as accurate as the other guns here. Also I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long case.585 HE long case shown in the port. Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel. It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add 585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad. We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of 9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed
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January 31, 2010, 12:26 AM | #523 |
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Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost. So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is. Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug, and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress. Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed
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February 6, 2010, 04:00 AM | #524 |
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Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun. Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can make tooling and charge less than 300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring. Let me know and we'll get arrangements made if enough are interested.I have two now.ED
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February 11, 2010, 11:34 PM | #525 |
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The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells. That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga. The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now, will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber. Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5" plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed
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