30-40 krag brass looks fireformed to be another cartridge

antibiotic · November 26, 2009, 10:12 AM

I have approx. 75 rds of brass that have a 30-40 krag headstamp. but do not look like 30-40 krag brass. they are not bottle neck shaped like they should be. they are different, they are totaly straight. like a pistol straight wall 44 mag caseing. or 357/38 case. My question is what do you think they are fireformed to?. what round could they be ???? i got these through a friend that recycles metals. thanks jimmy

mapsjanhere · November 26, 2009, 10:46 AM

How long is the cartridge? The 30-40 has the same base diameter as the 44.Russian and successors, so it would be a 44 most likely. I found a 44. Rhino and a 44. Linebaugh Long mentioned in Gun Digest of the 44s as based on the 30-40.

**Bud Helms** · November 26, 2009, 11:02 AM

Neck diameter?

Jim Watson · November 26, 2009, 11:06 AM

How long are they?

At one time the only way you could shoot a .405 Winchester was to blow Krag brass out straight. It would come out short but would work.
LIkewise .40-70 Sharps Straight.

Buffalo Arms has the equipment to redraw brass to full length and you might be seeing something they did for one of those calibers.

Some early modern BPCR shooters would use Krag brass blown out straight in a chamber cut to the right length for it and call it a .40-60 Maynard.

If shortened much, they may have mean meant as revolver shotshells.

Malamute · November 26, 2009, 11:25 AM

JW beat me to it, I was going to say 40-70 Sharps straight. I donated a handful of 30-40 cases to a friend to make up some 40-70 Sharps' loads way back when.

**Mike Irwin** · November 26, 2009, 12:27 PM

There are any number of cases, mostly obsolete black powder, that can be made by fireforming the .30-40.

.40-60 Winchester is one of them.

F. Guffey · November 26, 2009, 01:48 PM

40-50 Sharps bottle neck from 30/40 Krag, 38-40 Remington Hepburn from 30/40 Krag, 40-50 Sharps Straight wall from 30/40 Krag. 40-60 Marlin from 30/40 Krag?

44 Mag shothell from 30/40 Krag, 8x57R/.318 from 30-40 Krag or303 British.

40-60 Winchester from 45-70 US Govt.

F. Guffey

TX Nimrod · November 27, 2009, 11:11 PM

Another option is the .35 Winchester, not much of a shoulder there either. The OP needs to give us more details.

/

F. Guffey · November 28, 2009, 09:46 AM

The 35 Winchester self loading can be formed from the .357 Mag case, the 35Winchester can be formed from the 7mmx65R or the9.3mmx74R.

The neck on the 35 Winchester is .314 long, the 30/40 Krag is .201 shorter than the 35 Winchester, after forming the 30/40 case would be too short by .201+, if used to form a 35 Winchester the neck of the case after forming would have a neck length of less than .110. This would also create a large gap between the end of the case and end of the chamber.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · November 28, 2009, 09:51 AM

F. Guffey

HiBC · November 29, 2009, 02:46 PM

An old rolling block project was conceived (From SPG Lube's booklet) in 40-60 Maynard.

I took a 8 in chunk of junk mauser bbl,turned the outside to 12 ga shotshell dims,opened it up to about .40 cal,and ran a .40-70 sharps reamer into it.

I now had a bbl insert for a generic cheap old 12 ga break shotgun to blow 30-40 Krag or .303 Brit out straight.It worked well with the cream of wheat and bullseye trick.Virgin brass was required.Once fired split.
Hornady came out with their fine .405 WCF brass and made all this effort obsolete,as far as my priorities are concerned.

antibiotic · November 29, 2009, 10:00 PM

boy, thanks for the responses.... the case measures 11.57mm dia.straight wall. the length of the case is 41.05mm
hope this will narrow down the answer. thanks for your help.

TX Nimrod · November 30, 2009, 12:10 AM

Quote:

The neck on the 35 Winchester is .314 long, the 30/40 Krag is .201 shorter than the 35 Winchester, after forming the 30/40 case would be too short by .201+...

Sigh.....30-40 brass has for years been used to form .35 WCF cases, recommended by Waters, Barnes, etc. The european rimmed cases are difficult to find and expensive today and were much more so in the past. Krag brass is not perfect but it is entirely serviceable, as anyone who has tried it knows. I know.

.

F. Guffey · November 30, 2009, 10:11 AM

The 35 Winchester COULD be formed from long cases for a reason, the 30/40 Krag case is short, in my opinion too short, if I was recommending a case for forming this is not a piece of information I would omit. There are those that claim the 30/40 Krag can be formed from the 303 British, again the 303 is .200 shorter than the 30/40 (in my opinion) a new 30/40 Krag case is marginal at best in a rifle with one locking lug and when ammo was not available for the (a) 30/40 Krag it was recommended they use 303 British, for the most part this happened in Canada and Africa, the fact the shoulder on the 303 is behind the 30/40 krag by .075 (in my opinion) made this recommendation iffy at best, they used 303 British in the (a) 30/40 Krag, again in my opinion this is some scary stuff, to quote SEAWEED.

I built a 30 Gibbs, all the advice I received recommended 30/06 cases necked up to 338 or 35, before I went to the range the cases were .030 (in my opinion) too short, after firing they came out even shorter, I went back to the sources of the information, seems they were happy with short .217 necks that had a 0.40+ thousands gap between the end of the case and end of the chamber, the 300 Win Mag neck is .264 long, I started over with another case that increased the neck length to .257 thousands, this increased bullet hold (neck tension) and closed the gap between the mouth of the case and end of the chamber..

It seems the length of the case in question is not a factor, 41.4 is close to a case length of 1.461.

Scorch · November 30, 2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

the case measures 11.57mm dia.straight wall. the length of the case is 41.05mm

Those are close the dimensions of a couple of old obsolete black powder centerfire cartridges, the 44 Ballard Extra Long Centerfire, and the 44 Wesson Extra Long. They are also very close to the dimensions for the 454 Casull. If I had to choose, I would say the latter is more likely than the former.

TX Nimrod · December 4, 2009, 10:00 PM

Quote:

I built a 30 Gibbs, all the advice I received recommended 30/06 cases necked up to 338 or 35...

I thought that Rocky recommended using the longer .270 case for all his Gibbs line.....

.

antibiotic · February 7, 2010, 10:32 AM

if anyone can use these brass cases. i will ship them to you, you pay for shipping 5.00..... i dont have any use for these, and hate to just scrap them out. send me an email for best response, [email protected]

howlnmad · February 7, 2010, 04:16 PM

I could use them if they hadn't be reformed. I don't have alot of brass for my 30-40. Anybody have any that is still usable?

November 26, 2009, 10:12 AM	#1
antibiotic Member Join Date: March 18, 2008 Location: cleveland ohio Posts: 37	30-40 krag brass looks fireformed to be another cartridge I have approx. 75 rds of brass that have a 30-40 krag headstamp. but do not look like 30-40 krag brass. they are not bottle neck shaped like they should be. they are different, they are totaly straight. like a pistol straight wall 44 mag caseing. or 357/38 case. My question is what do you think they are fireformed to?. what round could they be ???? i got these through a friend that recycles metals. thanks jimmy

November 26, 2009, 10:46 AM	#2
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	How long is the cartridge? The 30-40 has the same base diameter as the 44.Russian and successors, so it would be a 44 most likely. I found a 44. Rhino and a 44. Linebaugh Long mentioned in Gun Digest of the 44s as based on the 30-40. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying. Last edited by mapsjanhere; November 26, 2009 at 10:51 AM.

November 26, 2009, 11:25 AM	#5
Malamute Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2004 Location: Rocky Mts Posts: 859	JW beat me to it, I was going to say 40-70 Sharps straight. I donated a handful of 30-40 cases to a friend to make up some 40-70 Sharps' loads way back when. __________________ "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

November 26, 2009, 12:27 PM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,381	There are any number of cases, mostly obsolete black powder, that can be made by fireforming the .30-40. .40-60 Winchester is one of them. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

November 28, 2009, 09:51 AM	#10
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	30-40 krag brass looks fireformed to be another cartridge F. Guffey Last edited by F. Guffey; November 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM. Reason: double post

November 26, 2009, 11:02 AM	#3
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	Neck diameter?

November 26, 2009, 11:06 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	How long are they? At one time the only way you could shoot a .405 Winchester was to blow Krag brass out straight. It would come out short but would work. LIkewise .40-70 Sharps Straight. Buffalo Arms has the equipment to redraw brass to full length and you might be seeing something they did for one of those calibers. Some early modern BPCR shooters would use Krag brass blown out straight in a chamber cut to the right length for it and call it a .40-60 Maynard. If shortened much, they may have mean meant as revolver shotshells.

November 26, 2009, 01:48 PM	#7
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	40-50 Sharps bottle neck from 30/40 Krag, 38-40 Remington Hepburn from 30/40 Krag, 40-50 Sharps Straight wall from 30/40 Krag. 40-60 Marlin from 30/40 Krag? 44 Mag shothell from 30/40 Krag, 8x57R/.318 from 30-40 Krag or303 British. 40-60 Winchester from 45-70 US Govt. F. Guffey

November 27, 2009, 11:11 PM	#8
TX Nimrod Senior Member Join Date: November 27, 2009 Location: Zona Posts: 423	Another option is the .35 Winchester, not much of a shoulder there either. The OP needs to give us more details. /

November 28, 2009, 09:46 AM	#9
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	The 35 Winchester self loading can be formed from the .357 Mag case, the 35Winchester can be formed from the 7mmx65R or the9.3mmx74R. The neck on the 35 Winchester is .314 long, the 30/40 Krag is .201 shorter than the 35 Winchester, after forming the 30/40 case would be too short by .201+, if used to form a 35 Winchester the neck of the case after forming would have a neck length of less than .110. This would also create a large gap between the end of the case and end of the chamber. F. Guffey

November 29, 2009, 02:46 PM	#11
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,283	An old rolling block project was conceived (From SPG Lube's booklet) in 40-60 Maynard. I took a 8 in chunk of junk mauser bbl,turned the outside to 12 ga shotshell dims,opened it up to about .40 cal,and ran a .40-70 sharps reamer into it. I now had a bbl insert for a generic cheap old 12 ga break shotgun to blow 30-40 Krag or .303 Brit out straight.It worked well with the cream of wheat and bullseye trick.Virgin brass was required.Once fired split. Hornady came out with their fine .405 WCF brass and made all this effort obsolete,as far as my priorities are concerned.

November 29, 2009, 10:00 PM	#12
antibiotic Member Join Date: March 18, 2008 Location: cleveland ohio Posts: 37	boy, thanks for the responses.... the case measures 11.57mm dia.straight wall. the length of the case is 41.05mm hope this will narrow down the answer. thanks for your help.

November 30, 2009, 10:11 AM	#14
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	The 35 Winchester COULD be formed from long cases for a reason, the 30/40 Krag case is short, in my opinion too short, if I was recommending a case for forming this is not a piece of information I would omit. There are those that claim the 30/40 Krag can be formed from the 303 British, again the 303 is .200 shorter than the 30/40 (in my opinion) a new 30/40 Krag case is marginal at best in a rifle with one locking lug and when ammo was not available for the (a) 30/40 Krag it was recommended they use 303 British, for the most part this happened in Canada and Africa, the fact the shoulder on the 303 is behind the 30/40 krag by .075 (in my opinion) made this recommendation iffy at best, they used 303 British in the (a) 30/40 Krag, again in my opinion this is some scary stuff, to quote SEAWEED. I built a 30 Gibbs, all the advice I received recommended 30/06 cases necked up to 338 or 35, before I went to the range the cases were .030 (in my opinion) too short, after firing they came out even shorter, I went back to the sources of the information, seems they were happy with short .217 necks that had a 0.40+ thousands gap between the end of the case and end of the chamber, the 300 Win Mag neck is .264 long, I started over with another case that increased the neck length to .257 thousands, this increased bullet hold (neck tension) and closed the gap between the mouth of the case and end of the chamber.. It seems the length of the case in question is not a factor, 41.4 is close to a case length of 1.461.

February 7, 2010, 10:32 AM	#17
antibiotic Member Join Date: March 18, 2008 Location: cleveland ohio Posts: 37	can you use these cases???? if anyone can use these brass cases. i will ship them to you, you pay for shipping 5.00..... i dont have any use for these, and hate to just scrap them out. send me an email for best response, [email protected]

February 7, 2010, 04:16 PM	#18
howlnmad Senior Member Join Date: April 29, 2009 Location: Harriman Tn Posts: 424	I could use them if they hadn't be reformed. I don't have alot of brass for my 30-40. Anybody have any that is still usable?