how low can I load my bolt action rifle

[Lavid2002]

right now im loading a 308 savage bolt action with a 150 grain surplus fmjbt bullet in front of 42.5 grains of varget powder, remington 9 1\2 primer. Decent accuracy at 100 yards.....but how low can I load these. 40 grains is allot of powder I think. The men down at the range were telling me for 30-30 they use 15 FIVETEEN grains of red dot....*** thats crazy! I would love to save money like that. This brass is fireformed and I cant see any potential problems low loading could create, I suppose if you were to go crazy low the bullet could get stuck in the bbl. Anyways....whats to keep me from putting 20 or 25 grains in these loads instead of 42.5. Thanks : )

-dave

[Sport45]

I think Hodgdon publishes data using Titegroup and Clays that are pretty far down there. If you want to use rifle powder for reduced loads I suggest first reading the section about this in Lee's Modern Reloading book. Varget might be a little slow for loading below published minimums.

You could also check out Hodgdon's Youth Loads. They use H4895 with the following explanation.

For all cartridges we chose H4895 because it is the slowest burning propellant that ignites uniformly at reduced charges. For years, H4895 has been the top choice by cast bullet shooters. For this type shooting, loads are reduced even more than the hunting loads listed herein. To create loads of this type for target and plinking, we recommend our 60% rule with H4895. By taking the maximum charges listed in our 27th Edition reloading manual with any given cartridge and multiplying it by 60%, the the shooter can create a 1500 to 2100 fls load, depending on the bullet weight shown. This works only where H4895 is listed. Do not use H4895 in a cartridge where it has not been shown.

[Unclenick]

If you try to load Varget down that low the pressure will be so low that it will burn dirty and inefficiently and provide erratic muzzle velocity. Red dot is a dramatically faster shotgun powder. It will do a better job of burning completely with empty air in the case and it will push the bullet out. What you will give up is velocity, of course (no free lunch in that regard). I don't know your barrel length, but if you're getting about 2550 fps from the Varget load, you'll get about 1900 fps from the Red Dot load? It won't do well beyond 100 yards because it will fall into the transonic range where your bullet stability may suffer.

I noticed a long time ago that most military and commercial FMJ's are not stellar in their accuracy. Best groups as large as 3" are not an uncommon 100 yard performance. A Sierra tech told me that's because forming the pointed noses from a thick jacket is hard to keep concentric, and it took them some effort to figure out how to do it well. Their FMJ's and Hornady's both shoot noticeably better than most others, commercial or military. I haven't tried the European brands in FMJ's, so I can't comment on their accuracy? Anyway, I would burn up your surplus FMJ's with whatever light load you come up with, and save the Varget for a good quality bullet. The only warning I have it to watch for excessive charges loading with Red Dot.

[Doodlebugger45]

Definitely do NOT go any lower with that powder.

Some powders you can go lower with but not many. Once you get below a certain charge, the pressure actually starts to increase in a very very abrupt and unpredictable manner. Strange but true, a light charge can cause a severe pressure spike.

I'm not sure why you want to go lower. There are a couple obvious reasons. If you're just trying to save powder and money, then you're out of luck with that powder.

If you are trying for a lower velocity and lower recoil, then there's options. On the riduculously slow, but safe and repeatable loads, you can use Trail Boss. Cool stuff really. You can put in 10-14 gr of Trail Boss and get velocities of 1200-1400 fps.

OR you can use the H4895 powder. This is also an unusual powder because you can reduce it by 60% from the max loads. For the 308 with a 150 gr bullet that would be somewhere around 28 grains or so. Hodgdon has actually tested all this and recommends it to be safe. Not sure what the velocity would be in your rifle, probably somewhere around 2200-2300 fps would be my guess and it should be very mild. And safe.

[wncchester]

"in front of 42.5 grains of varget powder, remington 9 1\2 primer. Decent accuracy at 100 yards.....but how low can I load .."

Powders are designed to work within a "normal" pressure range. Loading below that range produces inconsistant burn rates, it can fluctuate wildly.

Low velocity loads require a faster burn rate powder that can produce the proper pressure even if for a brief time. Thus, the Red Dot reduced load IS the way to go.

But, since modest powder charges are a lot less expensive than bullets, even cutting the charge in half won't greatly reduce the reloading costs.

[Sport45]

If you really want to save money plink with a .22lr.

You can drastically reduce reloading cost by shooting cast bullets. You'll save even more if you cast them yourself.

[Shoney]

The use of some shotgun/pistol powders in rifle cartridges used to be quite common. Loads of 12--20 grains of these powders, depending on the cartridge and bullet weight will produce very accurate plinking loads, especially with lead.

I have loaded over a thousand 30-06 with 115 gr cast 32-20 bullets, and AL-8 (todays Blue Dot). The load had an identical 100 yrd zero to my 165 hunting bullets, and was accurate to to that range.

I have loaded these plinking rounds for all my hunting rifles and carry a few with me to use on grouse, rabbits, and to finish off wounded animal.

[Unclenick]

Quote=Doodlebugger45]. . . Once you get below a certain charge, the pressure actually starts to increase in a very very abrupt and unpredictable manner. Strange but true, a light charge can cause a severe pressure spike.[/quote]

I am unaware of any powder that does that. Perhaps you are referring to detonation? The reported cases of detonation have always involved extremely small quantities of powder in a large empty case volume. These are described as an attempt to load the gun down to cat sneeze loads, and are typically associated with charges filling 10% or less of the space available. Labs have tried to replicate it for study, but nobody has been successful. Some claim it doesn't exist because of that, and that reports of it are intended to save face for the person who loaded the round. But I think, instead, it's a case of all the stars having to line up just right and the powder being distributed in the empty case in a very particular way.

There have been cases of reported high pressure from under-loading that were an erroneous interpretation of the result. For example, in under-loading H110/296 you get poor ignition, and it can happen in a revolver that when the bullet clears the barrel-cylinder gap, the lit powder can blow out, letting the rest or the powder mass extinguish. This leaves a bullet stuck in the barrel. If the next round ignites normally, it then shoots into a blocked bore, and that is what actually causes the high pressure event. People naturally interpret that as an undercharge bursting the gun. But as long as the bore is clear, though, the under-loading does not cause elevated pressure.

The other example is so-called "Bullseye surprise", a phenomenon in which light target loads of Bullseye (2.7 grains under a 148 grain wadcutter in a .38 Special case) are reported to have detonated spontaneously. This has been thoroughly debunked by metallurgical examination of the damage firearms showing they were damaged by simple high pressure and not a detonation (which tends to shatter metal rather than tearing it open). Instead it turned out to be caused by simple double-charging, which the .38 Special case has plenty of room for. Only God is perfect. Everyone else needs to double-check their powder charges.

[Doodlebugger45]

Ahhh... I see. No, I didn't know from personal experience, I was just repeating what I have read in the loading manuals. I suppose those guys are overly cautious these days. But Hodgdon's website says not to try reducing loads except with the aforementioned 4895 powder. I do like hearing from the experienced posters here who have personal in-depth knowledge on some of these issues. Chances are good that I will never try any of these things but I'm always curious about the real facts.

Now that I read the OP's post again, I see that his primary focus is to simply reduce costs, not to achieve a specific velocity goal. There are probably better ways to reduce costs though than what he was asking about. For me, the biggest cost comes in getting the brass initially, then the cost of the bullets. The primer and powder costs area lot smaller than those other items. But I suppose that once you have done everything there is to minimize your bullet and brass cost, the next obvious area is to look at your powder cost.

[Lavid2002]

118 per 8 lb jug
divided by
56000 (grains per 8 lb.)
multiplied by 40
(the charge of powder)
about 8.5 cents a charge..not bad.but according to you guys...it doesnt seem like the 4 cents a pop is worth it :P thanks guys

[Scorch]

Lavid2002-
If you really want to save money loading, start casting your own bullets, using gas checks as necessary. Then you can reduce the cost of the bullet (the most expensive part in the equation), AND the powder charge (cast bullets typically take less powder than a jacketed bullet to achieve a given velocity). You can cut your cost per shot by about 40% by doing so, and still enjoy shooting full-power rounds.

[Lavid2002]

Im afraid of lead exposure..I dont think the money would be wort the risk....what do you guys think

[Doodlebugger45]

I'm a bit leary of working with lead also, just because I've never done it. I still have a lot to learn about reloading bullets that have already been made for me first.

And I don't think anyone was second guessing the goal of saving some money where you can. If a feller can save 4 cents per round, then it adds up over a thousand rounds or so. But if that 4 cents costs you 1000 fps and destroys the accuracy, then it's not worth it just to hear a boom. It's a worthwhile question to ask if it gets people thinking about options.

[tkcomer]

Take a look at this: http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_f...ersal%2030.htm I use 9grs of Unique for my light 30-30 loads with a 170gr cast bullet.

[wncchester]

"Im afraid of lead exposure..I dont think the money would be wort the risk....what do you guys think"

Don't let modern junk science make you fear a harmless activity. Work - cast - in a moderately well ventalated area to avoid breathing the lead vapors in high concentrations and don't lick your fingers to clean them. All will be well.

[Sport45]

I probably put 10 pounds of cast bullets in the berm for every pound of jacketed.

[Lavid2002]

Im leaving for college soon. Ill keep doin' what im doin' and when Im out of college and shooting allot ill buy the gear to cast some bullets :P