45 ACP Taurus Tracker and Lead bullet problems.

Crosshair · October 18, 2007, 02:28 AM

I have a problem here. I have a Taurus Tracker revolver in 45 ACP. It will shoot factory ammo just fine, but when I try and reload using lead bullets for it I run into trouble.

It seems that while some rounds will load just fine into the chambers, on others a small amount of lead or lube gets pushed up around the case mouth. This is just enough to cause a headspacing problem and will gum up the gun.

I have tried different seating depths and crimp. I can reduce the problem, but cannot eliminate it. My 1911 does not have this problem and digests these rounds just fine, probably because the slide going into battery punches the round into place and the chamber is a little looser and more forgiving in an autoloader vs a revolver. (I honestly have no idea, all I know is that my 1911 will eat the ammo just fine aside from not feeding SWC bullets.)

I have been using Laser Cast 230 grain RN and 200 grain SWC bullets. I seat and crimp in one operation and I use Lee dies in a Classic Cast Turret press. (In case this makes a difference.) I have been thinking about getting some Berry's plated bullets. However they are much more expensive than the Laser Cast so I am hoping someone here can give me some tips.

rwilson452 · October 18, 2007, 05:46 AM

One solution ued by others is to crimp as a separate step. The Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) is a favorite. Have you tried to wipe excess lube and lead shavings off the rounds before loading them to be sure that is the problem. Sometimes a tighter crimp will resolve the issue. But for that I would suggest crimping as a separate step.

rwilson452 · October 18, 2007, 05:49 AM

I had difficulty with my XD 45 digesting LSWC bullets. I switched to Bear Creek coated bullets and had to adjust the COAL, then they worked just fine.

Stargazer · October 18, 2007, 06:23 AM

The brief time I had my 45 ACP tracker I was using jacketed bullets to reload with and "had" to get the Lee FCD so my loads would chamber in the cylinder. The general consensous is the 45 ACP tracker chambers are very tight. After the FCD, no more loading problems. I had other very serious problems though with mine. No fun to be at a range with folks beside you and you are holding a loaded and cocked revolver that will not fire no matter how hard you pulled on the trigger. I had to pull extremely hard on the trigger while pushing with weak hand thumb on the hammer to get it to fall and fire the round! I no longer own that Tracker. Good luck with yours.

Crosshair · October 18, 2007, 11:45 PM

Yea, asking around, it seems the only answer is to get the Lee crimp die. I ordered one at Cabela's today. Thanks for the help everyone.

rwilson452 · October 19, 2007, 09:12 AM

Tracker,

After you get the FCD you will need to readjust your seating die to only seat the bullet. Using a empty case that has been in the expanding die. Back out the seating die, then with the ram fully up with the seating die screw it down until it just touches the case. back it off 1/2 a turn then you can readjust your seating stem only to get the proper seating depth. As for the FCD, follow the directions that come with the die. I think you will like the results.

JustAnotherJim · October 19, 2007, 10:36 AM

The Lee FCD may help a little, but it won't be a cure all.

Unfortunately, 45acp trackers not only have very tight chambers, they have extremely tight chamber throats. I have two and the chamber throats on each measure between .451 and .452 (closer to .451).

Like others, I've had no problems with factory rounds or jacketed reloads. Lead is a whole other story. Most .45 lead bullets are sized to .452 and a fair percentage just don't want to fully chamber. The Lee FCD doesn't resize the part of the bullet outside the case so can't fully cure the problem. You're still trying to stuff a .452 bullet into a .451 chamber throat. Tiny lead shavings or bits of lube around the case rim obviously make the problem even worse.

The only solution I've found (with 200 LSWC and 230 RNL) is to seat the bullet so that the shoulder is even with or even a hair below the case mouth, then make sure there are no lead or lube shavings above the rim, then use the FCD to make sure the case itself will chamber. The downside of this is that the reduced seating depth makes the rounds too short to be fully reliable in my 1911s, ruining ammo compatibility (which is probably the coolest reason to own a 45acp revolver in the first place).

45acp Trackers are tight, finicky guns. The upside to the very tight headspace, chambers, chamber throats, and b/c gaps(at least on my two) is that they are VERY FAST guns. With every load I've ever tried, the 4" PORTED Trackers chrono much faster than my Smith 25-2s, 625s, or RIA 1911and even noticeably faster than my Kimbers, which are pretty tight themselves.

So now I generally have three groups of 45 acp ammo. Jacketed which can be used in anything. Lead which can be used in my 1911s or Smith revolvers and (short)lead which can be used in any of the revolvers.

**Unclenick** · October 19, 2007, 11:52 AM

The first step in accurizing a revolver is almost always to ream the cylinders to SAMMI maximum spec, so I am surprised all you Tracker owners haven't all had that done first rather than dealing with the ammo compatibility gyrations. Most gunsmiths used to offer this service. There is at least one web site that I am aware of for a company that you can send (just) the cylinder to (you have to disassemble and remove it yourself—they don't accept delivery on whole guns). They include .45 ACP on their caliber list and charge less than $40, IIRC, shipping included, and claim to have fast turn around. Since I do this kind of work myself on my own guns, I haven't used them, but have heard no complaints from people I've suggested try them. There may be other such place, with lead-shooting CAS revolvers growing in popularity, so check around.

JustAnotherJim · October 19, 2007, 01:06 PM

Unclenick,

Thanks for that link. For whatever reason I never really considered reaming an option. Probably because I assumed it would be much more expensive than that. I'm going to have to seriously consider shipping my cylinders off to those guys.

Jim

Crosshair · October 20, 2007, 11:32 PM

OK, I measured several of my handguns and slugged a chamber of the Taurus.

My Taurus 66+ .357 has chamber throats that measure .356"-.357". This revolver is very accurate.

My Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt has chamber throats that measure .450"-.451". Accuracy IS OK with this gun. Though it may have more to do with the sights.

My Taurus Tracker 45 ACP has chamber throats that measure from .450"-.451". I also slugged the cylinder with a lead 200 grain SWC bullet 15 minutes ago. After being punched through the cylinder, the slug measured .453", the same as when it went in.

My calipers is a $20 unit I have had for years so I don't know if my gun is wonky of if the calipers is wonky? I am inclined to believe the slugged bullet unless someone can tell my how I might be mistaken. (I would rather be corrected than be wrong, so please do correct me.)

**Unclenick** · October 21, 2007, 06:10 PM

Only pure lead works for slugging. Bullet casting alloys are too springy and pop right back out. You either have to cast some pure lead bullets, buy some from NECO, who sells them for slugging, or buy the pure lead fishing sinkers sold by Beartooth Bullets for slugging. It used to be all sinkers were pure lead, but most of them are alloy now, as the world becomes lead unfriendly and China hogs more and more of the lead, so you need to get them from a source that you know is providing pure lead.

Get a thimble micrometer with a vernier scale that lets you resolve ten thousandths (0.0001"). These need not be expensive. You just need to know how to read a vernier scale.

Normally, a revolver shoots lead bullets best if the chamber throats are about two thousandths over the barrel groove diameter and the bullets are about one thousandth over groove diameter. This lets the bullet move with good alignment through the throat without shaving lead or compressing it, and also lets it enter the rifling with extra metal to create a good gas seal against the grooves. There is a range of tolerance in here. Same-size bullets and throats would still work pretty well. The main sin with lead bullets is having a throat narrower than barrel groove diameter. That sends an undersize bullet into the bore and usually results in gas cutting that leads the barrel. For this same reason, a revolver barrel throat that is constricted where it is screwed into the frame (common problem) will mess up lead bullet accuracy. Either hand lapping in situ or fire lapping can correct the problem.

Jacketed bullets are much more forgiving of these kinds of errors because they don't gas cut and can spring back out after necking down better than a cast or a swaged lead bullet. However, I know of no loss of accuracy caused by using the larger chamber throats, so if it also cures chambering issues, why not do it?

Crosshair · October 22, 2007, 10:32 AM

Ah, OK. Thanks Unclenick, that explains it. Yea, those Laser Cast are hard bullets. So it looks like my calipers is right. Since the .357 measures about what it should be, then it looks like both the 45 guns are undersized.

Going to take both out to the range today with more loads to make sure of their accuracy potential (or lack of it) so I can see any improvement when i get them back.

clayking · October 23, 2007, 07:15 PM

I've had a tracker .45acp for over a year and experienced the same problems with loading. I found that I needed to load them just a tad shorter than its auto brothers with a smidge more crimp. After loading I put then into the moon clips and insert loaded clip into the cylinder for fit. If one does not fit, it is usually one round that presents the problem. Luckily, thanks to a replacement gun where I kept the original clips and fellow member Stargazer sending me his, I can load up about 20 full loads. I shoot lead.

The gun is accurate, but it's action is crap compared to a smith or colt............................ck

October 18, 2007, 02:28 AM	#1
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	45 ACP Taurus Tracker and Lead bullet problems. I have a problem here. I have a Taurus Tracker revolver in 45 ACP. It will shoot factory ammo just fine, but when I try and reload using lead bullets for it I run into trouble. It seems that while some rounds will load just fine into the chambers, on others a small amount of lead or lube gets pushed up around the case mouth. This is just enough to cause a headspacing problem and will gum up the gun. I have tried different seating depths and crimp. I can reduce the problem, but cannot eliminate it. My 1911 does not have this problem and digests these rounds just fine, probably because the slide going into battery punches the round into place and the chamber is a little looser and more forgiving in an autoloader vs a revolver. (I honestly have no idea, all I know is that my 1911 will eat the ammo just fine aside from not feeding SWC bullets.) I have been using Laser Cast 230 grain RN and 200 grain SWC bullets. I seat and crimp in one operation and I use Lee dies in a Classic Cast Turret press. (In case this makes a difference.) I have been thinking about getting some Berry's plated bullets. However they are much more expensive than the Laser Cast so I am hoping someone here can give me some tips. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

October 18, 2007, 06:23 AM	#4
Stargazer Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 506	The brief time I had my 45 ACP tracker I was using jacketed bullets to reload with and "had" to get the Lee FCD so my loads would chamber in the cylinder. The general consensous is the 45 ACP tracker chambers are very tight. After the FCD, no more loading problems. I had other very serious problems though with mine. No fun to be at a range with folks beside you and you are holding a loaded and cocked revolver that will not fire no matter how hard you pulled on the trigger. I had to pull extremely hard on the trigger while pushing with weak hand thumb on the hammer to get it to fall and fire the round! I no longer own that Tracker. Good luck with yours. __________________ 5.56mm, reach out and touch something. .458 SOCOM,reach out and knock something down. M70 Web Page

October 18, 2007, 11:45 PM	#5
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Yea, asking around, it seems the only answer is to get the Lee crimp die. I ordered one at Cabela's today. Thanks for the help everyone. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

October 19, 2007, 11:52 AM	#8
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	The first step in accurizing a revolver is almost always to ream the cylinders to SAMMI maximum spec, so I am surprised all you Tracker owners haven't all had that done first rather than dealing with the ammo compatibility gyrations. Most gunsmiths used to offer this service. There is at least one web site that I am aware of for a company that you can send (just) the cylinder to (you have to disassemble and remove it yourself—they don't accept delivery on whole guns). They include .45 ACP on their caliber list and charge less than $40, IIRC, shipping included, and claim to have fast turn around. Since I do this kind of work myself on my own guns, I haven't used them, but have heard no complaints from people I've suggested try them. There may be other such place, with lead-shooting CAS revolvers growing in popularity, so check around. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

October 20, 2007, 11:32 PM	#10
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	OK, I measured several of my handguns and slugged a chamber of the Taurus. My Taurus 66+ .357 has chamber throats that measure .356"-.357". This revolver is very accurate. My Ruger Vaquero 45 Colt has chamber throats that measure .450"-.451". Accuracy IS OK with this gun. Though it may have more to do with the sights. My Taurus Tracker 45 ACP has chamber throats that measure from .450"-.451". I also slugged the cylinder with a lead 200 grain SWC bullet 15 minutes ago. After being punched through the cylinder, the slug measured .453", the same as when it went in. My calipers is a $20 unit I have had for years so I don't know if my gun is wonky of if the calipers is wonky? I am inclined to believe the slugged bullet unless someone can tell my how I might be mistaken. (I would rather be corrected than be wrong, so please do correct me.) __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

October 18, 2007, 05:46 AM	#2
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	One solution ued by others is to crimp as a separate step. The Lee FCD (Factory Crimp Die) is a favorite. Have you tried to wipe excess lube and lead shavings off the rounds before loading them to be sure that is the problem. Sometimes a tighter crimp will resolve the issue. But for that I would suggest crimping as a separate step.

October 18, 2007, 05:49 AM	#3
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	I had difficulty with my XD 45 digesting LSWC bullets. I switched to Bear Creek coated bullets and had to adjust the COAL, then they worked just fine.

October 19, 2007, 09:12 AM	#6
rwilson452 Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2004 Location: Tioga co. PA Posts: 2,647	Tracker, After you get the FCD you will need to readjust your seating die to only seat the bullet. Using a empty case that has been in the expanding die. Back out the seating die, then with the ram fully up with the seating die screw it down until it just touches the case. back it off 1/2 a turn then you can readjust your seating stem only to get the proper seating depth. As for the FCD, follow the directions that come with the die. I think you will like the results.

October 19, 2007, 10:36 AM	#7
JustAnotherJim Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Posts: 4	The Lee FCD may help a little, but it won't be a cure all. Unfortunately, 45acp trackers not only have very tight chambers, they have extremely tight chamber throats. I have two and the chamber throats on each measure between .451 and .452 (closer to .451). Like others, I've had no problems with factory rounds or jacketed reloads. Lead is a whole other story. Most .45 lead bullets are sized to .452 and a fair percentage just don't want to fully chamber. The Lee FCD doesn't resize the part of the bullet outside the case so can't fully cure the problem. You're still trying to stuff a .452 bullet into a .451 chamber throat. Tiny lead shavings or bits of lube around the case rim obviously make the problem even worse. The only solution I've found (with 200 LSWC and 230 RNL) is to seat the bullet so that the shoulder is even with or even a hair below the case mouth, then make sure there are no lead or lube shavings above the rim, then use the FCD to make sure the case itself will chamber. The downside of this is that the reduced seating depth makes the rounds too short to be fully reliable in my 1911s, ruining ammo compatibility (which is probably the coolest reason to own a 45acp revolver in the first place). 45acp Trackers are tight, finicky guns. The upside to the very tight headspace, chambers, chamber throats, and b/c gaps(at least on my two) is that they are VERY FAST guns. With every load I've ever tried, the 4" PORTED Trackers chrono much faster than my Smith 25-2s, 625s, or RIA 1911and even noticeably faster than my Kimbers, which are pretty tight themselves. So now I generally have three groups of 45 acp ammo. Jacketed which can be used in anything. Lead which can be used in my 1911s or Smith revolvers and (short)lead which can be used in any of the revolvers.

October 19, 2007, 01:06 PM	#9
JustAnotherJim Junior Member Join Date: October 19, 2007 Posts: 4	Unclenick, Thanks for that link. For whatever reason I never really considered reaming an option. Probably because I assumed it would be much more expensive than that. I'm going to have to seriously consider shipping my cylinders off to those guys. Jim

October 21, 2007, 06:10 PM	#11
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	Only pure lead works for slugging. Bullet casting alloys are too springy and pop right back out. You either have to cast some pure lead bullets, buy some from NECO, who sells them for slugging, or buy the pure lead fishing sinkers sold by Beartooth Bullets for slugging. It used to be all sinkers were pure lead, but most of them are alloy now, as the world becomes lead unfriendly and China hogs more and more of the lead, so you need to get them from a source that you know is providing pure lead. Get a thimble micrometer with a vernier scale that lets you resolve ten thousandths (0.0001"). These need not be expensive. You just need to know how to read a vernier scale. Normally, a revolver shoots lead bullets best if the chamber throats are about two thousandths over the barrel groove diameter and the bullets are about one thousandth over groove diameter. This lets the bullet move with good alignment through the throat without shaving lead or compressing it, and also lets it enter the rifling with extra metal to create a good gas seal against the grooves. There is a range of tolerance in here. Same-size bullets and throats would still work pretty well. The main sin with lead bullets is having a throat narrower than barrel groove diameter. That sends an undersize bullet into the bore and usually results in gas cutting that leads the barrel. For this same reason, a revolver barrel throat that is constricted where it is screwed into the frame (common problem) will mess up lead bullet accuracy. Either hand lapping in situ or fire lapping can correct the problem. Jacketed bullets are much more forgiving of these kinds of errors because they don't gas cut and can spring back out after necking down better than a cast or a swaged lead bullet. However, I know of no loss of accuracy caused by using the larger chamber throats, so if it also cures chambering issues, why not do it? __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; October 22, 2007 at 12:47 PM. Reason: typo

October 22, 2007, 10:32 AM	#12
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Ah, OK. Thanks Unclenick, that explains it. Yea, those Laser Cast are hard bullets. So it looks like my calipers is right. Since the .357 measures about what it should be, then it looks like both the 45 guns are undersized. Going to take both out to the range today with more loads to make sure of their accuracy potential (or lack of it) so I can see any improvement when i get them back. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

October 23, 2007, 07:15 PM	#13
clayking Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2006 Location: Florida Posts: 796	I've had a tracker .45acp for over a year and experienced the same problems with loading. I found that I needed to load them just a tad shorter than its auto brothers with a smidge more crimp. After loading I put then into the moon clips and insert loaded clip into the cylinder for fit. If one does not fit, it is usually one round that presents the problem. Luckily, thanks to a replacement gun where I kept the original clips and fellow member Stargazer sending me his, I can load up about 20 full loads. I shoot lead. The gun is accurate, but it's action is crap compared to a smith or colt............................ck __________________ Never argue with an idiot, they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.