Colt Lightning Carbine

[johnm1]

Little information on these rifles. Best I can find the medium frame (pistol caliber) was offered in either a 26" rifle or a 20" carbine. Was it ever offered in an 18" barrel length? Realizing the last person who could answer the next question with first hand knowledge died in the 70's, does anybody know if a custom barrel length could have been ordered?

And yes, I know Jim K's opinion on these rifles.

I suspect the sample I'm looking at has had the barrel cut as the end of the front sight aligns with the end of the barrel. No pictures available.

Edit: although I still think the barrel may have been cut, I just looked at the pictures of a carbine, and the front sight and the magazine tube are arranged correctly . The tube ends at the barrel and the fro t sight is short of the end of the barrel.

[James K]

My guess (and it is just that) is that your gun came from the factory as either a 26" barrel rifle or a 20" barrel carbine. At some point, for some reason, the barrel was cut to 18". A previous owner may just have wanted a shorter barrel, or (more likely, IMHO) you have a rifle or carbine that had a bulged or blown barrel sometime after the NFA was passed. A gunsmith was able to "keep it legal" (just) but mounted the sight too far out, probably out of simple ignorance, since those were always uncommon guns.

If in doubt, look at the cuts in the barrel for the front sight and the magazine barrel lug. From those areas you can probably tell whether they were cut by the factory or by a gunsmith.

Jim

[johnm1]

Thanks Jim.

I'll go by tomorrow and look.

[James K]

If the price is right, a Lightning Colt with a sawed off barrel is still a good collector's item, and Numrich had barrels for most calibers up to a few years ago (I haven't checked recently). You might have an opportunity to get a nice gun at a bargain price.

Jim

[johnm1]

It is a bargain price I think. Certainly would be if it had a 20" barrel.

You wouldn't believe how many times your name came up when I searched for information about the Lightning Carbine on the open internet. I lurk a lot and have come to respect your opinion. Apparently not enough to not think about a Lightning.

[johnm1]

The barrel was definitely cut. So this was probably not a good deal. That didnt stop me though. Working on pictures.

In the meantime what is the mechanism that locks the bolt in battery? Currently the bolt will open from battery with the slightest of force. I have the parts diagram but the locking mechanism is not readily apparent.

[johnm1]

Well disassembly and cleaning went well. It was filthy. When I got it you couldn't cycle the action fully. And it just felt like krud was binding it. I did not remove the bolt as one web site suggested it was difficult to reinstall. As indicated previously, when the muzzle was pointed upwards the bolt would open from battery under its own weight. I found that if the magazine tube was installed rotated a certain way that would repeat. I did find a position that allowed the bolt to lock. As configured now the bolt doesn't open under its own weight. But I can cycle the bolt if I pull hard enough. When I do pull hard enough it 'feels' like something moves out of the way and unlocks the bolt. It appears to be the piece that the cartridge stop is on that locks the bolt. I think the tang of the mag tube was consistantly pushing that piece down. A combination of gunk and how the mag tube was rotated. The tube shouldn't rotate but the relocated dovetail for the mag tube attachment wasn't done very well when the barrel was shortened.

So the big question is if we have actually achieved lock up. I have read conflicting information on the internet. I would like to know that before firing it. First fire will be in the desert with either a string or a heavy tarp.

Anybody got a good source for black powder 32-20?

[James K]

The "locking brace" is a roughly "L" shaped part that locks the bolt. The "corner" of the "L" fits into the bottom front of the bolt and is pinned to it. The short or lower side of the "L" hangs down and fits into a square hole in the slide extension. The longer two ends fit into seats in the "tang" (trigger guard) when the slide is forward and locked.

The following is based on books and what I remember, since I don't have a Lightning and it has been a long time since I had one of those guns apart.

If you can work the slide and the bolt unlocks and moves back, the locking brace must be in place, as it is what connects the slide to the bolt. If in doubt about the bolt locking, simply run a cleaning rod down the barrel and push on the bolt when the slide is forward. The bolt should not move.

To remove the bolt, remove the sideplate screws (the two rearmost screws in the receiver) and the trigger guard. Then push out the locking brace pin left to right through the un-threaded upper holes, and pull the locking brace down and out of the receiver. The bolt can then be pulled out the rear of the receiver.

There is a good article on that gun in "Antique Firearms - Assembly and Disassembly" by David R. Chicoine. The actual gun he used is an Italian reproduction, but AFAIK, they are the same as the Colts.

Jim

[johnm1]

Thanks Jim. That is a good test with the cleaning rod. I susect it will pass. There were several discussions on a couple of boards that made it sound as if you should not be able to cycle the action if the hammer was either half or fully cocked. What I have now feels correct.

I very much appreciate your sharing your experience and the time looking things up. Espcially considering your disdain for the design. Without a rifle to look at I don't know how you can remember this kind of stuff. I'm 55 and suffer from CRS syndrome (can't remember stuff (only not stuff).

I may have to invest in a good book on this one. I really like the rifle. And at this point I am pretty sure i have a fully functional 32-20 carbine. The only thing I dont care for is how front heavy it is. Octagon barrel with a 32 caliber hole in lieu of a 44 caliber hole. Maybe that's why someone cut off 2" of barrel.

I was able to find a barrel and mag tube. When the vendor states to call for pricing, you just know it is going to be high. I will probably just leave it the way it is. It was manufactured in 1887 so I'm going to stay with black powder cartridges.

What is your opinion on using grease on the sliding parts inside the receiver? Would oil be more appropriate while shooting black powder?

I have pictures but one of my accounts is full and Im having trouble getting to the other.

[johnm1]

I forgot to say thanks for the explanation of the locking mechanism. Your explanation and the diagram helps me understand how it works. That and having to align the locking brace in the slide extension made it a lot clearer. I have a theory of how it unlocks when the slide is pulled back sharply. But I'll have to review the drawgins a little more.

Thanks again.

[johnm1]

As I suspected, the bolt cannot be pushed open from the bolt face with a cleaning Rod. I used my full body weight to test it. Need a new cleaning Rod now.

I saw no reason to take the bolt out. I was able to scrub it with a wire brush while it was exposed and flush it with chlorine free brake fluid. Seems to work properly.

Thanks again for all the help.

[Tidewater_Kid]

I would very much like to see it when you get pictures!

TK

[James K]

The principle is simple enough. The downward projection of the locking block fits into a hole in the slide extension. When the slide extension is moved back, that moves the projection back, which raises the locking lugs out of engagement with the trigger guard and allows the bolt to be pushed back. When the slide is pulled forward, the projection is pulled forward by the slide extension and the locking lugs are forced down into the seats in the trigger guard, locking the bolt. It is a simple enough mechanism in basics, but the other stuff (like the operation of the carrier) gets a bit more complex.

Jim

Here is a picture that might help:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/sear...g&action=click

Jim

[johnm1]

Wow. That was easy to understand. Your technical writing skills are very good.

The carbine functioned ok today i do have some tweaking to do. The elevator failed to rise a couple of times and i had a few that weren't pulled from the chamber. It is clean so I suspect worn parts. I'll disassemble again including the bolt and evaluate.

Accuracy? I don't know. I was shooting outside and I just cant see the front sight.

[James K]

The extractor is its own spring, and they sometimes lose tension, but be careful if you try to "tune" it. They are fragile and, because they are fragile, scarce.

Jim

[johnm1]

Now there's a piece of wisdom I didn't have to learn the hard (read expensive) way. I'll stay with removing the bolt and cleaning for now. In most cases the extractor grabbed the case and tossed it a good distance. So the hope is I didn't get it clean enough.

Thank you. Again

[James K]

Sounds like the extractor is just fine. One reason for removing the bolt is that out of the gun it can be left to soak in a cleaning solution to get crud out of the firing pin tunnel and other nooks and crannies, plus making sure everything moves freely like the firing pin lever (retraction cam) and firing pin.

Of course, the gun can be taken completely down, but that might not be a good idea for a gun with which you are not familiar.

Jim

[johnm1]

The less I have to disassemble the better. I don't like the idea of removing the bolt due to the through pin involved. But with the ftf and fte i think it is worth the effort. Soaking appears to be the prudent course of action. This thing will be a hoot to shoot if I can make it function reliably.

Believe it or not I'm still working on pictures. This is no beauty queen.

[James K]

"This thing will be a hoot to shoot if I can make it function reliably."

And a learning experience.

Jim

[johnm1]

Well it gets worse. Although the feed issue seemed to go away with lubrication, I didn't shoot enough tonight to really confirm that.

When I shot on Saturday it was for function. I didn't have a lot of time and only took an 8" swinger. I thought my problem was not being able to see the front sight. Tonight I took it to the indoor range and used the reading glasses I use when on a computer. That worked pretty well. But I found that the projectiles are tumbling out of the barrel. Rifling is there and all the way to the crown. But very shallow. The barrel was cut with a hack saw and no chamfer added.

I'm going to slug the barrel to see if I need a larger diameter bullet I'm also going to be more aggressive in cleaning the barrel. I wonder how successful a Lewis Lead Remover would be on a rifle barrel? And I'm going to have to put some kind of a chamfer on the crown. But that will be after cleaning the barrel a bit more.

It's 129 years old. The barrel may just be toast. Thing is have shot worse looking barrels with much better results.

[Tidewater_Kid]

Sounds like it might just be a undersized bullet. Hoppes makes a solution for removing lead from barrels. I have used it and it takes several applications. I don't think it would hurt anything to try it.

Might try these:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/32_WCF_Bl....aspx?CAT=4438

[Tidewater_Kid]

John asked me to help post pictures, so here's the first one.

TK

[johnm1]

Thanks TK. I'm trying to resize so you don't have to do so much to post.

I'm going to slug the bore tonight. I figure the odds are real good it comes back above .314. My money is on .316. Any takers.

[Tidewater_Kid]

More pictures from John...

[Tidewater_Kid]

Some more...