Federal Agencies exceeding authority... Trend?

MLeake · May 17, 2013, 11:36 AM

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/article...WT.mc_sect=gan

So, DHS agents since 2010 have been claiming authority to conduct unscheduled ramp checks - and ramp checks per se are the province of the FAA. AOPA (Aircraft Owner's and Pilot's Association) is investigating a series of such incidents.

Note the comment about agents unloading baggage and gear, and leaving the mess for the pilot to clean up.

Note the invasive search, with threats to conduct it with the pilot in handcuffs, if necessary.

Note that Customs officers are detaining aircraft that have not departed the US, but that have flown into legalized marijuana states.

Who has oversight? If DHS works like DOJ, IRS, and State, Napolitano will say this is the work of rogue underlings and that she never knew about it because she had recused herself...

CharlieDeltaJuliet · May 17, 2013, 12:34 PM

After the Patriot Act, we are really not a free society anymore.... Well really the government controlled too much e en before... I am not being a conspiracy theorist, I simply sat a read the actual Patriot Act.... It is scary... Read it if you get a chance. The original is a 134 page(IIRC) PDF.

Jo6pak · May 17, 2013, 05:09 PM

Seems that trend has been going on at least since FDR.

Regarding the Patriot Act, as I have tried to figure it out. There are so many things included that refer "strengthening" or "expanding"to many other bills and gov't powers, it is like reading stereo instructions in Swahili. You basically need to be a scholar of law to figure out what most of it really means.

rebs · May 17, 2013, 05:51 PM

Our government has gone too far period and is going even further. Disarming the citizenry is the goal and then look out for what they will do.

BumbleBug · May 17, 2013, 06:20 PM

Personally, I feel like the Patriot Act is a good example & comparison of what can happen if we allow circumstance & emotions to suddenly allow laws to undermine the 2nd amendment.

After 9/11, with a Country reeling from tragedy & filled with rage & fear, the Patriot Act was introduced & quickly brought into effect with little resistance. It has grown out of proportion under a blanket of secrecy into something no one ever really wanted or needed. Terrorism was just an excuse. It was like a beast that our government was just waiting to unleash when the "perfect storm" arrived - like 9/11.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlieDeltaJuliet

After the Patriot Act, we are really not a free society anymore

Truer words were never said.

Once the 2nd amendment is breached, with so called logical & sensible laws born of emotion & fear, the down hill erosion will begin. There is no mistake about it, the ultimate intentions are obvious. The elite, corrupted political machine says "trust me", although they only have a history of deceit.

End of rant...

...bug

CharlieDeltaJuliet · May 17, 2013, 07:46 PM

You are right, it is smoke and mirrors. It is the exact same (on a smaller scale) thing that happened with the Patriot Act , that happened in New York, Connecticut, and Colorado after Newtown. When you can use a tragedy to the advantage of getting legislature passed that goes against the very values and "rules" that our nation and government was founded on.

Our government has complete control and power over it's citizens. Other countries have government that fear it people. It is vice versa in this nation. When I was young, I grew up damn proud to be American, because I knew I was free. Now, I know I am only as free as my government will let me be.....

Dr Big Bird PhD · May 17, 2013, 08:04 PM

Not to be a Ron Paul parrot or anything, but the establishment of the Federal Reserve in 1913 provides the liquid leverage for the expansion of these federal agencies.

If we did not run on a fiat, centralized currency with easily manipulated interest rates and no restraint on credit expansion, our government literally *could not* expand at the rate it has without using physical coercion.

**Tom Servo** · May 17, 2013, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Once the 2nd amendment is breached, with so called logical & sensible laws born of emotion & fear, the down hill erosion will begin.

Actually, that really began in earnest in 1968 and pretty much reached its nadir in 1994. In the intervening time, we've actually reclaimed quite a bit of lost liberty.

Yes, the government is larger and more meddlesome than the founders would have wanted, but the system still works, and it can be changed.

Pilot · May 17, 2013, 10:00 PM

Quote:

So, DHS agents since 2010 have been claiming authority to conduct unscheduled ramp checks - and ramp checks per se are the province of the FAA. AOPA (Aircraft Owner's and Pilot's Association) is investigating a series of such incidents.

Yes, I agree, there are more incidents I am hearing about. The profile us pilots and airplane owners. (I am also an AOPA member, and have an airplane) If you do a lot of long distance flying in light piston aircraft be prepared to be questioned. A friend of mine does dog rescues, and flies a twin cross continent and also internationally, and he has been harassed for no good reason. They will attempt to get you to plea to a lesser charge to make them go away. Don't do it, get a lawyer.

Also look for DHS/TSA scanner vans at a highway, street corner and neighborhood near you. They're not just for airports anymore.

BumbleBug · May 17, 2013, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Servo

Yes, the government is larger and more meddlesome than the founders would have wanted, but the system still works, and it can be changed.

Sorry, I'm not so optimistic....

rebs · May 19, 2013, 06:08 AM

The system is working so to speak, but not the way it was intended to work. As said by ohers we are no longer truly free people. We are being governed and laws are being passed that the people do not want or need. The Patriot Act is a prime example of this. Since when is it American that a person can be locked up and held indefinitely without a trial ? What happened to do process ? Obama has great idea's to take from the rich and give to the poor, but the reason is that he is buying votes. Obamacare is a huge mess that is going to change health care for everyone and not for the better. Rough times are coming if the American people allow it to happen.
Nothing is being done about unemployment or jobs or anything else except a desperate attempt to disarm the American citizens. Why do think that is ?

NH_Pilot · May 19, 2013, 08:16 AM

So getting back to the first post, if an individual has their personally owned recreational airplane parked in front of the hangar that they own, and one or more individuals walk up, show no ID, and announce that they intend to check the pilot and aircraft, do precedents like Terry v Ohio apply? Can the individual say "I do not consent to a search" and make it stick? If the individuals refuse to show ID, can you call 911 to get a member of the local PD to sort it out?

And to address the topic of firearms, you look at the anonymous individual and state "I am legally armed". What does a fed do?

Thanks,

Wes

rebs · May 22, 2013, 06:47 AM

If you look at everything that is happening like camera's on street corners, drones, Obama care, massive federal spending, changes in immigration laws, desperate attempts to circumvent the 1st and 2nd amendments etc..
What direction do you see our government is heading ? Don't you get the feeling that something is going very wrong ?

BigD_in_FL · May 22, 2013, 06:57 AM

It has been this way since Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeus Corpus, The folks created the Fed in 1913 - read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" -and FDR ballooned the federal gov't during the Depression - this is nothing new; it is just that the internet allows more folks to do a better job at finding out

tomrkba · May 22, 2013, 07:18 AM

Really? The 2A has not been breached? So you are saying I can carry my pistol in Washington DC without any sort of government permission?

The 2A has been nullified on Federal property for decades. Let's stop fooling ourselves: every right in the Constitution is being violated in various degrees by Federal law. This is their game: pass laws and let SCOTUS tell us the Constitution means something other than what it says! US citizens have to be among the most gullible people on the planet with regard to government and law.

MLeake · May 22, 2013, 09:42 AM

...we have this report from infowars:

http://www.infowars.com/armed-dhs-gu...ty-protesters/

Granted, I take Alex Jones with a grain of salt.

Also granted, Treasury security in past decades might well have come from the Secret Service, which now falls under DHS.

Even so, why does a Tea Party protest rate a visible show of federal force?

csmsss · May 22, 2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Even so, why does a Tea Party protest rate a visible show of federal force?

It does, only insofar as it is regarded that someone who seeks to limit the reach and grasp of our central government is now considered treasonous and therefore dangerous. As best I can tell, there has not been a single act of violence committed by a Tea Party member at any of their demonstrations. Contrast that with the various Occupy Wall Street protests.

In other words, a political ideology is rapidly being seen as a criminal enterprise by those who run our government.

sigcurious · May 22, 2013, 09:58 AM

Granted, I skipped around in the video, but I saw now show of federal force. I saw DHS vehicles parked in a parking lot. There was one guy in a uniform at the beginning.

Quote:

Also granted, Treasury security in past decades might well have come from the Secret Service, which now falls under DHS.

This seems to be more the case or rather more specifically that FPS is now tasked with providing security for federal facilities.

Quote:

The FPS mission is to render federal properties safe and secure for federal employees, officials and visitors in a professional and cost effective manner by deploying a highly trained and multi-disciplined police force.

Source

Tactical Jackalope · May 22, 2013, 12:57 PM

Quote:

If you look at everything that is happening like camera's on street corners, drones, Obama care, massive federal spending, changes in immigration laws, desperate attempts to circumvent the 1st and 2nd amendments etc..
What direction do you see our government is heading ? Don't you get the feeling that something is going very wrong ?

I couldn't agree with you more. And the pulling of innocent people from their homes with force, without a proper search warrant during the Boston search for the second terrorist. That seemed like an opportune practice run for future plans if you ask me.

NWPilgrim · May 22, 2013, 03:13 PM

While the govt is chomping away at our freedoms in many areas as mentioned above, I think the 2A is the last line of demarcation for our liberty.

BigD_in_FL · May 22, 2013, 08:47 PM

Quote:

I think the 2A is the last line of demarcation for our liberty.

Not really, the PEOPLE who believe in the 2A are the last line of defense - and we are being trampled by a dictatorial regime that thumbs it nose at the laws with the help of the media

fragtagninja · May 23, 2013, 01:53 AM

CharlieDelta is very right. Any American that has not actually read the provisions of the patriot act should. A lot of the authority that these agencies are exercising was given to them through the patriot act. Many provisions have expired, but congress keeps voting to prolong the others. The ACLU has filed a number of law suits in regards to the patriot act, but ultimately have not gotten the Supreme Court to hear the cases they are most outraged with in many instances. I would say that they have made some headway, but have a long way to go. Here is a link to what I would call a small victory.

http://www.aclu.org/national-securit...triot-act-case

So trend? I suppose you could say that, but agencies acting on authority delegated to them through legislation passed by congress would be more accurate. Honestly I don't think this is anything new. My personal opinion is that these incidents have been on going for sometime are just now becoming public.

May 17, 2013, 11:36 AM	#1
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Federal Agencies exceeding authority... Trend? http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/article...WT.mc_sect=gan So, DHS agents since 2010 have been claiming authority to conduct unscheduled ramp checks - and ramp checks per se are the province of the FAA. AOPA (Aircraft Owner's and Pilot's Association) is investigating a series of such incidents. Note the comment about agents unloading baggage and gear, and leaving the mess for the pilot to clean up. Note the invasive search, with threats to conduct it with the pilot in handcuffs, if necessary. Note that Customs officers are detaining aircraft that have not departed the US, but that have flown into legalized marijuana states. Who has oversight? If DHS works like DOJ, IRS, and State, Napolitano will say this is the work of rogue underlings and that she never knew about it because she had recused herself...

May 17, 2013, 12:34 PM	#2
CharlieDeltaJuliet Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2012 Posts: 755	After the Patriot Act, we are really not a free society anymore.... Well really the government controlled too much e en before... I am not being a conspiracy theorist, I simply sat a read the actual Patriot Act.... It is scary... Read it if you get a chance. The original is a 134 page(IIRC) PDF. __________________ " The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government...." - Thomas Jefferson

May 17, 2013, 05:09 PM	#3
Jo6pak Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: West Coast...of WI Posts: 1,663	Seems that trend has been going on at least since FDR. Regarding the Patriot Act, as I have tried to figure it out. There are so many things included that refer "strengthening" or "expanding"to many other bills and gov't powers, it is like reading stereo instructions in Swahili. You basically need to be a scholar of law to figure out what most of it really means. __________________ NRA Life Member, SAF contributor.

May 17, 2013, 07:46 PM	#6
CharlieDeltaJuliet Senior Member Join Date: July 25, 2012 Posts: 755	You are right, it is smoke and mirrors. It is the exact same (on a smaller scale) thing that happened with the Patriot Act , that happened in New York, Connecticut, and Colorado after Newtown. When you can use a tragedy to the advantage of getting legislature passed that goes against the very values and "rules" that our nation and government was founded on. Our government has complete control and power over it's citizens. Other countries have government that fear it people. It is vice versa in this nation. When I was young, I grew up damn proud to be American, because I knew I was free. Now, I know I am only as free as my government will let me be..... __________________ " The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in Government...." - Thomas Jefferson

May 17, 2013, 08:04 PM	#7
Dr Big Bird PhD Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2012 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 779	Not to be a Ron Paul parrot or anything, but the establishment of the Federal Reserve in 1913 provides the liquid leverage for the expansion of these federal agencies. If we did not run on a fiat, centralized currency with easily manipulated interest rates and no restraint on credit expansion, our government literally could not expand at the rate it has without using physical coercion. __________________ I told the new me, "Meet me at the bus station and hold a sign that reads: 'Today is the first day of the rest of your life.'" But the old me met me with a sign that read: "Welcome back." Who you are is not a function of where you are. -Off Minor

May 17, 2013, 05:51 PM	#4
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	Our government has gone too far period and is going even further. Disarming the citizenry is the goal and then look out for what they will do.

May 19, 2013, 06:08 AM	#11
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	The system is working so to speak, but not the way it was intended to work. As said by ohers we are no longer truly free people. We are being governed and laws are being passed that the people do not want or need. The Patriot Act is a prime example of this. Since when is it American that a person can be locked up and held indefinitely without a trial ? What happened to do process ? Obama has great idea's to take from the rich and give to the poor, but the reason is that he is buying votes. Obamacare is a huge mess that is going to change health care for everyone and not for the better. Rough times are coming if the American people allow it to happen. Nothing is being done about unemployment or jobs or anything else except a desperate attempt to disarm the American citizens. Why do think that is ?

May 19, 2013, 08:16 AM	#12
NH_Pilot Member Join Date: November 26, 2012 Posts: 33	So getting back to the first post, if an individual has their personally owned recreational airplane parked in front of the hangar that they own, and one or more individuals walk up, show no ID, and announce that they intend to check the pilot and aircraft, do precedents like Terry v Ohio apply? Can the individual say "I do not consent to a search" and make it stick? If the individuals refuse to show ID, can you call 911 to get a member of the local PD to sort it out? And to address the topic of firearms, you look at the anonymous individual and state "I am legally armed". What does a fed do? Thanks, Wes

May 22, 2013, 06:47 AM	#13
rebs Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2012 Posts: 3,881	If you look at everything that is happening like camera's on street corners, drones, Obama care, massive federal spending, changes in immigration laws, desperate attempts to circumvent the 1st and 2nd amendments etc.. What direction do you see our government is heading ? Don't you get the feeling that something is going very wrong ?

May 22, 2013, 06:57 AM	#14
BigD_in_FL Junior member Join Date: December 20, 2012 Location: The "Gunshine State" Posts: 1,981	It has been this way since Lincoln suspended the writ of Habeus Corpus, The folks created the Fed in 1913 - read "The Creature from Jekyll Island" -and FDR ballooned the federal gov't during the Depression - this is nothing new; it is just that the internet allows more folks to do a better job at finding out

May 22, 2013, 07:18 AM	#15
tomrkba Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2011 Posts: 751	Really? The 2A has not been breached? So you are saying I can carry my pistol in Washington DC without any sort of government permission? The 2A has been nullified on Federal property for decades. Let's stop fooling ourselves: every right in the Constitution is being violated in various degrees by Federal law. This is their game: pass laws and let SCOTUS tell us the Constitution means something other than what it says! US citizens have to be among the most gullible people on the planet with regard to government and law. Last edited by tomrkba; May 22, 2013 at 07:24 AM.

May 22, 2013, 09:42 AM	#16
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	On a related note, as far as working outside theoretical charters... ...we have this report from infowars: http://www.infowars.com/armed-dhs-gu...ty-protesters/ Granted, I take Alex Jones with a grain of salt. Also granted, Treasury security in past decades might well have come from the Secret Service, which now falls under DHS. Even so, why does a Tea Party protest rate a visible show of federal force?

May 22, 2013, 03:13 PM	#20
NWPilgrim Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 2008 Location: Oregon Posts: 2,346	While the govt is chomping away at our freedoms in many areas as mentioned above, I think the 2A is the last line of demarcation for our liberty. __________________ "The ultimate authority ... resides in the people alone. ... The advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition." - James Madison

May 23, 2013, 01:53 AM	#22
fragtagninja Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2013 Posts: 194	CharlieDelta is very right. Any American that has not actually read the provisions of the patriot act should. A lot of the authority that these agencies are exercising was given to them through the patriot act. Many provisions have expired, but congress keeps voting to prolong the others. The ACLU has filed a number of law suits in regards to the patriot act, but ultimately have not gotten the Supreme Court to hear the cases they are most outraged with in many instances. I would say that they have made some headway, but have a long way to go. Here is a link to what I would call a small victory. http://www.aclu.org/national-securit...triot-act-case So trend? I suppose you could say that, but agencies acting on authority delegated to them through legislation passed by congress would be more accurate. Honestly I don't think this is anything new. My personal opinion is that these incidents have been on going for sometime are just now becoming public.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Email this Page	Search this Thread: Advanced Search