ATF Decision Reversal on Akins Accelerator

VUPDblue · December 11, 2006, 09:49 PM

I found on Subguns.com that ATF has recinded their initial ruling on the Akins Accelerator and they now find that it is a machinegun subject to NFA rules.
http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=580857

What now? This will be an interesting case to watch!

C Philip · December 11, 2006, 10:05 PM

Reading the documentation on their site, there are some good arguments on the side of the Akins company. I think the ATF will have a hard time countering those arguments, since the Akins accelerator doesn't fall within the official definition of a machine gun I don't see how the ATF can regulate it unless they change the definition, which I find unlikely.

VUPDblue · December 11, 2006, 10:16 PM

I agree that there are good arguements against that ruling, specifically the definition of a Machine Gun. However, I see that a grey area exists in that definition "...by a single function of the trigger." I can forsee the ATF ruling that the initial pull of the trigger when using this device is the "single function" as your finger remains stationary after that initial pull and during 'automatic' fire. I also don't see that this would be up for review or appeal. The lawyers can argue their case, but I was under the assumption that ATF has the final say.

buzz_knox · December 11, 2006, 10:33 PM

As the agency charged with carrying out the various gun control acts, ATFE is given considerable discretion in how it interprets the acts and the implementing regulations. I wouldn't hold out much hope for the company unless there is rather clear and convincing evidence that ATFE is flat wrong . . . and even, there is a good chance the court will rule against the company anyway.

Csspecs · December 11, 2006, 11:31 PM

But the ATF had the item in their hands and gave it their approval. The letter on their site is dated November 11 1996 it took over ten years to change their mind?

How does that work? Well I guess they will have to allow people to register them now.

JLelli · December 12, 2006, 12:21 AM

Quote:

But the ATF had the item in their hands and gave it their approval. The letter on their site is dated November 11 1996 it took over ten years to change their mind?

How does that work? Well I guess they will have to allow people to register them now.

Apparantly the Fifth Amendment prohibition of double jeopardy doesn't apply to the Gestapo... I mean BATFE.

It is illegal to register any machine gun or machine gun kit after 1986, regardless of the circumstances. Thanks to this reversal, all the law-abiding citizens who own an AA are now instant felons.

VUPDblue · December 12, 2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

It is illegal to register any machine gun or machine gun kit after 1986, regardless of the circumstances. Thanks to this reversal, all the law-abiding citizens who own an AA are now instant felons.

This may or may not be the case. As stated above, there may be an amnesty or registration provided in this case. Maybe not, but we will just have to see how it turns out in court.

buzz_knox · December 12, 2006, 09:54 AM

The "amnesty" would be for individuals to turn them in rather than be prosecuted, just as there would be an "amnesty" for someone who suddenly found themselves in possession of any other illegal device or substance.

VUPDblue · December 12, 2006, 10:05 AM

Right you are. And those people would have been better-off donating that $1400 to me. Heck, I would have even sent them a personalized coffee mug for their generosity!

boofus · December 12, 2006, 10:09 AM

We need ATF reform NOW. The stupid illiterate american public voted in the gungrabbers and the reform bills that were formerly up for discussion will go nowhere.

VUPDblue · December 12, 2006, 11:36 AM

Quote:

We need ATF reform NOW

Truer words have never been spoken. Especially when it comes to .gov intervention, if any other bureaus issued a statement and then arbitrarily recinded their position the public would be outraged. Us as gun owners, and especially NFA owners, need to stand up to ATF. How, I don't know right now, but we need to push for some better oversight for BATFE. Because of one decision, lots of people spent their hard-earned dollars (and paid taxes to boot!) on a device the ATF said was legal. Now those people could be out their money and .gov still gets to keep the taxes paid on those sales. This is a huge problem and needs a fixin'!

FirstFreedom · December 12, 2006, 11:53 AM

http://www.firefaster.com/index.html

buzz_knox · December 12, 2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Especially when it comes to .gov intervention, if any other bureaus issued a statement and then arbitrarily recinded their position the public would be outraged.

They do it quite often. Look up the EPA's flip flop on new source review for powerplant modifications. They issued one rule, signed off on a lot of modifications, then tried to screw the utilities years (even decades) later by saying the mods were never authorized under the regs notwithstanding their prior statements.

dfaugh · December 12, 2006, 12:10 PM

Quote:

We need ATF reform NOW

.

Yeah pretty much make up the rules as they go along. AND change them whenever they feel like it. I'm (sadly), not surprised about this....But remember these are the same people who declared a shoestring to be a machine gun.

MisterPX · December 12, 2006, 02:39 PM

Better buy those Hellfires and Tac triggers now before they become NFA too!

VUPDblue · December 12, 2006, 03:29 PM

Did you read the part in the ATF's first statement that said that the Accelerator was not comparable to those Hellfire triggers because they (the hellfires) took a lot of 'manipulation' to work as intended? Seems even the ATF knows that they are garbage...

Crosshair · December 13, 2006, 05:11 AM

OK, we seriously need to drug test everyone at the ATF as well as a rectal exam. This crap simply can't stand. I would write to my represenatives, but can someone give me some arguments in a nutshell (Besides, "This is ****** retarded") to use when I write my letter. I working on finals and can't think straight right now.

TNT · December 13, 2006, 05:10 PM

THe BATFE and the IRS have both been rogue branches that have gone unchecked and unbalanced it seems to me that they let it go for 10years and then suddenly make a ruling that you can no longer have it [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]? The only way that they can save face is buy either revoking their decision of making them illegal or grand fathering all those out there that already exsist waivering the 200.00 fee to those that have them and or just coming out and saying we know we are not within legal bounds of the law and we are disbanding as of today to avoid further embarassment and a waste of tax payer dollars.

Ok wishful thinking on the later part

mxwelch · December 14, 2006, 08:36 AM

The ATF should be a store, not a federal agency.

oldbillthundercheif · December 15, 2006, 03:50 PM

Argh.

Akins should not have promoted the thing so much. If they had let it catch on through word-of-mouth they could have sold a few truckloads of them while it flew under the radar.

Did they manage to sell any before the BATFE cut them off at the knees?

If so, are the ones they sold now considered unregistered machine-guns?

Crosshair · December 16, 2006, 01:20 AM

Akins did nothing wrong with promoting their product the way they did. They recieved approval from the ATF saying that their product was legal. The ATF knew full well what it did. Now, years later, the law having never changed, they decide that suddenly this accesory is illegal. It is the ATF who is in the wrong.

V4Vendetta · December 16, 2006, 10:52 AM

I don't suppose anyone here knows where I could get one of those for my 10/22?

Double Naught Spy · December 16, 2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

But the ATF had the item in their hands and gave it their approval. The letter on their site is dated November 11 1996 it took over ten years to change their mind?

How does that work? Well I guess they will have to allow people to register them now.

Quote:

Apparantly the Fifth Amendment prohibition of double jeopardy doesn't apply to the Gestapo... I mean BATFE.

The Fifth Amendment doesn't apply to mechanical devices any more than the 2nd Amendment applies to the rights of gerbils. Plus, double jeopardy pertains to being tried in a court of law. The Akins Accelerator hasn't been to court for a crime and been found not-guilty, then brought up on the same charges anew for the same crime...so no double jeopardy.

p99guy · December 16, 2006, 11:18 AM

I just dug a shotgun news(DEC 10 issue, page 82) out of the mailbox this week and they had an half page advert selling those stocks....took my breath away what they wanted for one

975.00 to 1185.00 depending on which of the 3 models you got.

Yup, 10/22 165.00...stock 1185.00
...wife making me sleep out in the truck for buying a thousand dollar stock.
....ATF working off the AKins company shipping lists comes to my house
......wanting the stock or me(they dont care which)
...priceless.

Travismaine · December 16, 2006, 12:14 PM

True 100 bucks is allot for a stock. However a registered FA 10/22 will run you at least three to four times that. The ones that where already sold will most likely get some type of grandfather clause as they where legal when sold and even came with a copy of the BATF approval letter. Of course this will at least double there value.

December 11, 2006, 09:49 PM	#1
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	ATF Decision Reversal on Akins Accelerator I found on Subguns.com that ATF has recinded their initial ruling on the Akins Accelerator and they now find that it is a machinegun subject to NFA rules. http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=580857 What now? This will be an interesting case to watch! __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

December 11, 2006, 10:16 PM	#3
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	I agree that there are good arguements against that ruling, specifically the definition of a Machine Gun. However, I see that a grey area exists in that definition "...by a single function of the trigger." I can forsee the ATF ruling that the initial pull of the trigger when using this device is the "single function" as your finger remains stationary after that initial pull and during 'automatic' fire. I also don't see that this would be up for review or appeal. The lawyers can argue their case, but I was under the assumption that ATF has the final say. __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

December 12, 2006, 10:05 AM	#9
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Right you are. And those people would have been better-off donating that $1400 to me. Heck, I would have even sent them a personalized coffee mug for their generosity! __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

December 12, 2006, 03:29 PM	#16
VUPDblue Senior Member Join Date: December 18, 2005 Location: Central Indiana Posts: 1,981	Did you read the part in the ATF's first statement that said that the Accelerator was not comparable to those Hellfire triggers because they (the hellfires) took a lot of 'manipulation' to work as intended? Seems even the ATF knows that they are garbage... __________________ Silencers have NEVER been illegal !

December 13, 2006, 05:11 AM	#17
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	OK, we seriously need to drug test everyone at the ATF as well as a rectal exam. This crap simply can't stand. I would write to my represenatives, but can someone give me some arguments in a nutshell (Besides, "This is ****** retarded") to use when I write my letter. I working on finals and can't think straight right now. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

December 11, 2006, 10:05 PM	#2
C Philip Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: USA Posts: 784	Reading the documentation on their site, there are some good arguments on the side of the Akins company. I think the ATF will have a hard time countering those arguments, since the Akins accelerator doesn't fall within the official definition of a machine gun I don't see how the ATF can regulate it unless they change the definition, which I find unlikely.

December 11, 2006, 10:33 PM	#4
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	As the agency charged with carrying out the various gun control acts, ATFE is given considerable discretion in how it interprets the acts and the implementing regulations. I wouldn't hold out much hope for the company unless there is rather clear and convincing evidence that ATFE is flat wrong . . . and even, there is a good chance the court will rule against the company anyway.

December 11, 2006, 11:31 PM	#5
Csspecs Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Posts: 1,111	But the ATF had the item in their hands and gave it their approval. The letter on their site is dated November 11 1996 it took over ten years to change their mind? How does that work? Well I guess they will have to allow people to register them now.

December 12, 2006, 09:54 AM	#8
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,190	The "amnesty" would be for individuals to turn them in rather than be prosecuted, just as there would be an "amnesty" for someone who suddenly found themselves in possession of any other illegal device or substance.

December 12, 2006, 10:09 AM	#10
boofus Junior member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Location: JesusLand,TX Posts: 371	We need ATF reform NOW. The stupid illiterate american public voted in the gungrabbers and the reform bills that were formerly up for discussion will go nowhere.

December 12, 2006, 11:53 AM	#12
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	http://www.firefaster.com/index.html

December 12, 2006, 02:39 PM	#15
MisterPX Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2006 Location: Amerika's Doyleland Posts: 809	Better buy those Hellfires and Tac triggers now before they become NFA too!

December 13, 2006, 05:10 PM	#18
TNT Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2006 Location: Back in glorious Nebraska Posts: 606	THe BATFE and the IRS have both been rogue branches that have gone unchecked and unbalanced it seems to me that they let it go for 10years and then suddenly make a ruling that you can no longer have it [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color]? The only way that they can save face is buy either revoking their decision of making them illegal or grand fathering all those out there that already exsist waivering the 200.00 fee to those that have them and or just coming out and saying we know we are not within legal bounds of the law and we are disbanding as of today to avoid further embarassment and a waste of tax payer dollars. Ok wishful thinking on the later part __________________ "In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man and brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Last edited by TNT; December 14, 2006 at 03:37 PM.

December 14, 2006, 08:36 AM	#19
mxwelch Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2006 Posts: 379	The ATF should be a store, not a federal agency.

December 15, 2006, 03:50 PM	#20
oldbillthundercheif Junior member Join Date: April 21, 2006 Location: New Orleans Posts: 2,450	Argh. Akins should not have promoted the thing so much. If they had let it catch on through word-of-mouth they could have sold a few truckloads of them while it flew under the radar. Did they manage to sell any before the BATFE cut them off at the knees? If so, are the ones they sold now considered unregistered machine-guns?

December 16, 2006, 01:20 AM	#21
Crosshair Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2004 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 5,333	Akins did nothing wrong with promoting their product the way they did. They recieved approval from the ATF saying that their product was legal. The ATF knew full well what it did. Now, years later, the law having never changed, they decide that suddenly this accesory is illegal. It is the ATF who is in the wrong. __________________ I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.

December 16, 2006, 10:52 AM	#22
V4Vendetta Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2006 Location: NC, USA Posts: 605	I don't suppose anyone here knows where I could get one of those for my 10/22? __________________ But I being poor, have only my dreams. Tread softly. Because you tread on my dreams. Within each one of us there is a inch of hope, of will, of integrity. We must never lose or give away that inch. For within it we are free.

December 16, 2006, 11:18 AM	#24
p99guy Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Haslet,Texas(DFW area) Posts: 1,506	I just dug a shotgun news(DEC 10 issue, page 82) out of the mailbox this week and they had an half page advert selling those stocks....took my breath away what they wanted for one 975.00 to 1185.00 depending on which of the 3 models you got. Yup, 10/22 165.00...stock 1185.00 ...wife making me sleep out in the truck for buying a thousand dollar stock. ....ATF working off the AKins company shipping lists comes to my house ......wanting the stock or me(they dont care which) ...priceless. __________________ Lighten up Francis!.....;Actor Warren Oats, in the movie "Stripes"

December 16, 2006, 12:14 PM	#25
Travismaine Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2006 Posts: 147	True 100 bucks is allot for a stock. However a registered FA 10/22 will run you at least three to four times that. The ones that where already sold will most likely get some type of grandfather clause as they where legal when sold and even came with a copy of the BATF approval letter. Of course this will at least double there value.

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