Bayonets

mjby · October 27, 2002, 02:24 AM

My son recently began "basic" in the IDF. He was told that bayonets are not issued since they "are prohibited by the Geneva Convention". Sounds to me like somebody is pulling his leg.
Does anyone have any input? Aren't bayonets currently issued to U.S. forces?

mjby

TPS · October 27, 2002, 02:42 AM

Bayonets are currently issued. Somebody is having fun with him, or is repeating some nonsense imposed on them by someone else.

I recall, way back when I was a private, a lot of officers telling us all kinds of BS like we couldn't shoot troops with .50 cals and similar garbage. All crap.

The M9 bayonet was recalled because it had a saw back edge on it. We were reissued the stright edge M7 bayonet. This was 1993 timeframe. To me it never made much sense. Who the hell cares about the blade configuration when they're getting stuck? Has anyone done a pain and suffering study among bayonet victims? What a bunch of crap.

tommygun45 · October 27, 2002, 10:23 PM

Actually Col. David Grossman did a study on the use of the bayonet. As I recall he had great difficulty finding a person who used the bayonet rather than performing a rifle butt stroke. I believe it is covered in his excellent book "On Killing"
As far as specific prohibitions on the use of weapons they are covered under the Hague Accords not the Geneva Conventions, which deal with the treatment of prisoners of war.

scotjute · October 28, 2002, 08:25 AM

Had a conversation with a colonel (currently serving in the winter-vacation-hot-spot-of-the-middle-east, Afghanistan) about what soldiers are issued in the way of bladed weapons, which is the M-9 bayonet. He did mention that they are normally kept in armory and the soldiers have to sign for them. Apparently the army has decided that our soldiers are more apt to stab/wound themselves or other soldiers, than to actually use them in battle. Also theft of the bayonets is a problem hence having the soldiers sign for them.

TPS · October 28, 2002, 07:00 PM

As far as US use of bayonets: they are weapons, and therefore are kept in the armory where they are issued along with rifles, machine guns, mortars, etc as needed. The self-injury and theft rationale is false. Most troops have far better knives of their own with which they can stab themselves and each other. If you can't trust your warriors with bayonets, how the hell can you trust them with rifles and machine guns? The USMC has always trained in the use of the bayonet, so if this is against the "rules", somebody better let us know so we don't get in trouble. Also, I would take Col. Grossmans comments with a very large grain of salt.

I'm not familiar with IDF policy on bayonets. I was thinking that if it is true that they do not issue them, it may be because of PR reasons, but they have never seemed to be overly concerned with political correctness.

foghornl · November 6, 2002, 12:51 PM

My long-deceased Dad (WW2 Pacific Theatre Army Infantry) once told me a story about using the bayonet on his M-1 Garand. Seems they were under a "human-wave-to-overrun-the USGI's" type assault. The Japanese Army guys tried to take the US base by sheer numbers. Dad emptied the M-1, then when charged by another Japanese soldier, [who's rifle was apparently also empty] Dad 'removed him from the battle' with the bayonet fixed to "business end" of the M-1. Shoved in another en-bloc clip, and continued to repel the assault.

CWL · November 6, 2002, 05:24 PM

mjby,

I believe in your son's situation, bayonets may not be issued to IDF forces charged with missions within Palestinian territories. Probably something to do with domestic peacekeeping missions, conduction of military actions inside civilian/highly-urbanized areas, etc.

Wouldn't be good to be filmed mounting a bayonet charge against rockthrowers, etc.

cracked butt · November 7, 2002, 04:06 AM

During WWI German sappers and tunnelers were issued sawback bayonets. When used, these bayonets would literally pull the guts out of the enemy. Often times, bayonet victims would not die right away or were perhaps lucky enough to get medical treatment and were able to survive. The unlucky fellas who got the business end of the sawback bayonets sometimes lived for hours or days with their guts ripped out. The Germans voluntarily stopped using sawback bayonets because soldiers who were captured with these bayonets were most times shot on sight.

October 27, 2002, 02:24 AM	#1
mjby Member Join Date: June 13, 2002 Location: Jerusalem, Israel Posts: 19	Bayonets My son recently began "basic" in the IDF. He was told that bayonets are not issued since they "are prohibited by the Geneva Convention". Sounds to me like somebody is pulling his leg. Does anyone have any input? Aren't bayonets currently issued to U.S. forces? mjby

October 27, 2002, 02:42 AM	#2
TPS Member Join Date: July 11, 2002 Posts: 20	BS ALERT! Bayonets are currently issued. Somebody is having fun with him, or is repeating some nonsense imposed on them by someone else. I recall, way back when I was a private, a lot of officers telling us all kinds of BS like we couldn't shoot troops with .50 cals and similar garbage. All crap. The M9 bayonet was recalled because it had a saw back edge on it. We were reissued the stright edge M7 bayonet. This was 1993 timeframe. To me it never made much sense. Who the hell cares about the blade configuration when they're getting stuck? Has anyone done a pain and suffering study among bayonet victims? What a bunch of crap.

November 6, 2002, 12:51 PM	#6
foghornl Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2002 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,354	My long-deceased Dad (WW2 Pacific Theatre Army Infantry) once told me a story about using the bayonet on his M-1 Garand. Seems they were under a "human-wave-to-overrun-the USGI's" type assault. The Japanese Army guys tried to take the US base by sheer numbers. Dad emptied the M-1, then when charged by another Japanese soldier, [who's rifle was apparently also empty] Dad 'removed him from the battle' with the bayonet fixed to "business end" of the M-1. Shoved in another en-bloc clip, and continued to repel the assault. __________________ Load your weapons and 'Stand Ready'. It will be a bumpy ride.

November 6, 2002, 05:24 PM	#7
CWL Senior Member Join Date: May 23, 2001 Location: Bay Area, CA Posts: 1,576	mjby, I believe in your son's situation, bayonets may not be issued to IDF forces charged with missions within Palestinian territories. Probably something to do with domestic peacekeeping missions, conduction of military actions inside civilian/highly-urbanized areas, etc. Wouldn't be good to be filmed mounting a bayonet charge against rockthrowers, etc. __________________ Vae Victis

October 27, 2002, 10:23 PM	#3
tommygun45 Member Join Date: April 29, 2002 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 55	Actually Col. David Grossman did a study on the use of the bayonet. As I recall he had great difficulty finding a person who used the bayonet rather than performing a rifle butt stroke. I believe it is covered in his excellent book "On Killing" As far as specific prohibitions on the use of weapons they are covered under the Hague Accords not the Geneva Conventions, which deal with the treatment of prisoners of war.

October 28, 2002, 08:25 AM	#4
scotjute Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 2001 Location: texas Posts: 260	Had a conversation with a colonel (currently serving in the winter-vacation-hot-spot-of-the-middle-east, Afghanistan) about what soldiers are issued in the way of bladed weapons, which is the M-9 bayonet. He did mention that they are normally kept in armory and the soldiers have to sign for them. Apparently the army has decided that our soldiers are more apt to stab/wound themselves or other soldiers, than to actually use them in battle. Also theft of the bayonets is a problem hence having the soldiers sign for them.

October 28, 2002, 07:00 PM	#5
TPS Member Join Date: July 11, 2002 Posts: 20	As far as US use of bayonets: they are weapons, and therefore are kept in the armory where they are issued along with rifles, machine guns, mortars, etc as needed. The self-injury and theft rationale is false. Most troops have far better knives of their own with which they can stab themselves and each other. If you can't trust your warriors with bayonets, how the hell can you trust them with rifles and machine guns? The USMC has always trained in the use of the bayonet, so if this is against the "rules", somebody better let us know so we don't get in trouble. Also, I would take Col. Grossmans comments with a very large grain of salt. I'm not familiar with IDF policy on bayonets. I was thinking that if it is true that they do not issue them, it may be because of PR reasons, but they have never seemed to be overly concerned with political correctness.

November 7, 2002, 04:06 AM	#8
cracked butt Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2001 Location: southeastern wisconsin Posts: 537	During WWI German sappers and tunnelers were issued sawback bayonets. When used, these bayonets would literally pull the guts out of the enemy. Often times, bayonet victims would not die right away or were perhaps lucky enough to get medical treatment and were able to survive. The unlucky fellas who got the business end of the sawback bayonets sometimes lived for hours or days with their guts ripped out. The Germans voluntarily stopped using sawback bayonets because soldiers who were captured with these bayonets were most times shot on sight.